Contemplating Switching Dosing Methods

[trevorhiller]

Currently I'm dosing Kalkwasser and All For Reef to my tank, but I'm contemplating switching over to two part and I'm looking for feedback. It's not that I don't like the AFR, but I had it dialed in on my tank and my tank was relatively stable at around 7-8 dKH with 6 mL/day AFR and 1300 mL/day Kalkwasser for a month. Now over the last week and a half, my Alk has decided to climb to 9.1 so I began decreasing the AFR to get it dialed in again. The same happened on my old tank, stable and then all the sudden I had to start rapidly decreasing the dose. I've essentially cut the dose in half to 3 mL/day for the last week and it is just today starting to come down. I believe the decrease in demand is probably related to it being a newer tank and still getting stabilized.

I'm not sure that I am patient enough for All For Reef. I like to test my tank a lot because it is new and check Alk daily, but for it to take a week to see adjustments is more than I would like. It's also challenging because there isn't really a dosing calculator for AFR it's trial and error vs x mL = x dKH/ppm Calcium.

I'm thinking about getting the Tropic Marin balling kit and switching to two part and continuing the Kalkwasser for the pH boost. I feel like it may be easier to dose since the adjustments can be appreciated faster since I'm already doing daily Alk testing. I had planned to use the AFR on my 15 gallon tank, but since I decided to upgrade to a 60 gallon, maybe it's just not the best solution for what I want now. The only annoyance is needing more dosing pumps which I would need to get.

Thoughts?

 

[Coolcasino]

Sounds like a plan to me. I switched from a kalk reactor to 2 part. Reactor was starting to not keep up. I never tried AFR as I needed to dose a lot of it and just went with 2 part. AFR to me seems like a great product over all but for smaller tanks. I would go slow and maybe decide which of the 2 (reactor or 2 part) you want to be the main supplement. Your tank might not need the reactor but for the PH boost.

 

[trevorhiller]

Sounds like a plan to me. I switched from a kalk reactor to 2 part. Reactor was starting to not keep up. I never tried AFR as I needed to dose a lot of it and just went with 2 part. AFR to me seems like a great product over all but for smaller tanks. I would go slow and maybe decide which of the 2 (reactor or 2 part) you want to be the main supplement. Your tank might not need the reactor but for the PH boost.

I was kind of wondering that too. The AFR doesn't effect pH, which is why I added the Kalk. But I'm wondering if I would need it with the 2 part.

I also need to decide what dosing pump to get. I have a Kamoer single channel right now, and I wanted to try the Versa eventually--but they are still no where to be found.

I might order some 2 part and dose by hand until they come back in stock

 

[undermind]

I think moving to 2 part would be an ok plan, but if I were in the same situation, I wouldn't do it.

I view AFR as being similar to 2 part, except simpler and superior. By giving up AFR, you're giving up minor and trace elements. You're adding more equipment to operate it, and creating more complexity in managing the dose of multiple additives.

Those are the things you lose by moving away from AFR but I'm not sure what you gain. You mentioned not needing to wait a week to test Alk if you're not using AFR any longer but that's not accurate. You don't need to wait a week to test when using AFR. There is a delay that should be considered due to the calcium formate, but it's about a 5 hour delay, not 1 week.

Also, to expand that point a little further, if you have the AFR on a doser, there's nothing wrong with testing Alk daily if you wish to. Your test results are valid because you have the AFR going in hourly (assumably). Even if you do a single dose each day, the tests are valid each day as long as the time you test remains consistent.

If you just want to make a change with your system, then that's one thing. But the fact that your Alk has raised does not seem like any reason to bail on AFR. It's simply a reason to adjust your dosage (which you'll have to tweak forever anyway).

 

[blaxsun]

I run 3-part (alkalinity, calcium and magnesium) but mix my calcium and magnesium together (60-40) as it's a relatively low dosing amount. Seems to do the trick.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think moving to 2 part would be an ok plan, but if I were in the same situation, I wouldn't do it.

I view AFR as being similar to 2 part, except simpler and superior. By giving up AFR, you're giving up minor and trace elements. You're adding more equipment to operate it, and creating more complexity in managing the dose of multiple additives.

Those are the things you lose by moving away from AFR but I'm not sure what you gain. You mentioned not needing to wait a week to test Alk if you're not using AFR any longer but that's not accurate. You don't need to wait a week to test when using AFR. There is a delay that should be considered due to the calcium formate, but it's about a 5 hour delay, not 1 week.

Also, to expand that point a little further, if you have the AFR on a doser, there's nothing wrong with testing Alk daily if you wish to. Your test results are valid because you have the AFR going in hourly (assumably). Even if you do a single dose each day, the tests are valid each day as long as the time you test remains consistent.

If you just want to make a change with your system, then that's one thing. But the fact that your Alk has raised does not seem like any reason to bail on AFR. It's simply a reason to adjust your dosage (which you'll have to tweak forever anyway).

Switching to a two part doesn’t necessarily mean giving up added elements. Some include extra and some folks just add them to their two part.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was kind of wondering that too. The AFR doesn't effect pH, which is why I added the Kalk. But I'm wondering if I would need it with the 2 part.

I also need to decide what dosing pump to get. I have a Kamoer single channel right now, and I wanted to try the Versa eventually--but they are still no where to be found.

I might order some 2 part and dose by hand until they come back in stock

You can make a two part with the same pH boost as limewater (kalkwasser) per unit of alk added.

 

[LeftyReefer]

I've been quite happy with dosing ATI Essentials Pro 2-part via my doser. And like AFR, it also includes trace elements.
Has been keeping things very stable ever since I switched to dosing via a doser rather than by hand.

 

[Joe's Coral Reef]

Is that correct 6ml of all for reef and 1300ml of kalk ? If your only dosing 6ml of all for reef I wouldn't switch to 2 part. I think when your dosing allot of all for reef it makes $ sense to change to 2 part. On the other hand 1300ml of kalk per day on a 60 gallon seems like allot. Seems like you could pull back on the kalk dosage. Are you dosing kalk through top off?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is that correct 6ml of all for reef and 1300ml of kalk ? If your only dosing 6ml of all for reef I wouldn't switch to 2 part. I think when your dosing allot of all for reef it makes $ sense to change to 2 part. On the other hand 1300ml of kalk per day on a 60 gallon seems like allot. Seems like you could pull back on the kalk dosage. Are you dosing kalk through top off?

That amount of limewater does not seem much to me. It only adds 0.65 dKH per day.

 

[undermind]

Switching to a two part doesn’t necessarily mean giving up added elements. Some include extra and some folks just add them to their two part.

Well of course. But the OP is specifically referencing AFR and 2 part, and with those, the difference is trace elements.

I'm just not sure I understand why everyone is suggesting a change to 2 part / 2 part + more stuff / etc, instead of simply adjusting the dosage of AFR.

The OP also mentioned the annoyance of adding more dosers. The only solution that doesn't require buying more stuff and tweaking more doses is the one that is already in place. And as I mentioned earlier, they all require monitoring and tweaking. Why not tweak the one in place now?

 

[undermind]

I should also re-emphasize the fact that a primary reason mentioned by the OP for considering 2 part was because of the need to wait a week to make adjustments when using AFR. But that of course is a misunderstanding. Maybe knowing that a week's wait isn't actually necessary could be a factor in the decision.

 

[LeftyReefer]

I'm just not sure I understand why everyone is suggesting a change to 2 part / 2 part + more stuff / etc, instead of simply adjusting the dosage of AFR.

Because the OP specifically said he was considering switching from AFR to 2-part and wanted feedback.
see below.

Currently I'm dosing Kalkwasser and All For Reef to my tank, but I'm contemplating switching over to two part and I'm looking for feedback.

I should also re-emphasize the fact that a primary reason mentioned by the OP for considering 2 part was because of the need to wait a week to make adjustments when using AFR. But that of course is a misunderstanding. Maybe knowing that a week's wait isn't actually necessary could be a factor in the decision.

I agree, there clearly seems to be some misunderstanding going on here.
I think the OP's issue is that he adjusted his dosage way down and yet the tank didn't seem to respond to those changes for a week.... Not that he couldn't make changes for a week....
see below.

I've essentially cut the dose in half to 3 mL/day for the last week and it is just today starting to come down.

Does AFR contain organic sources of ALK ? If so, perhaps changing to something that used an inorganic source of ALK would help the OP?

 

[undermind]

I agree, there clearly seems to be some misunderstanding going on here.
I think the OP's issue is that he adjusted his dosage way down and yet the tank didn't seem to respond to those changes for a week.... Not that he couldn't make changes for a week....

You're suggesting the misunderstanding is mine? I think there may be an aspect of AFR that you're not aware of.

I perceive the comment regarding waiting a week as being due to a widely-known issue with AFR using calcium formate, and Alk not showing up in tests for a while. In all the AFR threads, a lot of people say to wait several days before you make adjustments, to be safe. In extreme cases, people push that out longer – in this case, a week. But the reality is, it doesn't take a week to see the Alk change, or even a few days. It takes about 4 or 5 hours according to @Lou Ekus as I recall from interviews he's done.

The OP's comment that I'm referring to is this one. Note the "not patient enough for All For Reef" part:

I'm not sure that I am patient enough for All For Reef. I like to test my tank a lot because it is new and check Alk daily, but for it to take a week to see adjustments is more than I would like

 

[Bpp124987]

Kalk and afr is already I little bit complicated. Moving to two part makes it more so.
So, why?
As noted above of you dose afr thru the day, and test at about same time every day, you’re fine.
The reason it took so long for all to drop is that you’re at such a low afr volume

 

[Lou Ekus]

You're suggesting the misunderstanding is mine? I think there may be an aspect of AFR that you're not aware of.

I perceive the comment regarding waiting a week as being due to a widely-known issue with AFR using calcium formate, and Alk not showing up in tests for a while. In all the AFR threads, a lot of people say to wait several days before you make adjustments, to be safe. In extreme cases, people push that out longer – in this case, a week. But the reality is, it doesn't take a week to see the Alk change, or even a few days. It takes about 4 or 5 hours according to @Lou Ekus as I recall from interviews he's done.

The OP's comment that I'm referring to is this one. Note the "not patient enough for All For Reef" part:

Just to clarify... I don't know when I've stated an actual time frame like 4 or 5 hours for the alkalinity from AFR to show up in testing. If I said that, it was in error (I make mistakes too!) In actuality, the best way I can explain this is that it depends on the individual system. Each system will be a little different and depends on many diverse factors like bacterial activity, alkalinity consumption, carbonate concentration etc. But the best ballpark I can give is that it seems to take somewhere between a few hours (in very rare cases) to a few days. My understanding of the mechanism is this... even though the alkalinity may not be showing up in the water column on your test, the corals are still getting the alkalinity they need during that initial period of time. This is because the reason it is not showing up in the water column is that the bulk of the alkalinity is being converted within the coral polyps themselves. Hence, they get what they need and it does not show in the water. This dynamic changes somewhat once the supply to the corals is fully met. But that time period is not usually as little as 4 or 5 hours. In my experience it is usually a day or two.
I hope this helps clarify a little.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well of course. But the OP is specifically referencing AFR and 2 part, and with those, the difference is trace elements.

I'm just not sure I understand why everyone is suggesting a change to 2 part / 2 part + more stuff / etc, instead of simply adjusting the dosage of AFR.

The OP also mentioned the annoyance of adding more dosers. The only solution that doesn't require buying more stuff and tweaking more doses is the one that is already in place. And as I mentioned earlier, they all require monitoring and tweaking. Why not tweak the one in place now?

The difference is trace elements IF you elect a two part that doesn’t include extra trace elements like AFR, but some do. That is my point.

 

[Spare time]

I find all for reef changes to show up in less than 24 hours after dosing, making daily alk testing easy.

 

[Justdrew]

Is that correct 6ml of all for reef and 1300ml of kalk ? If your only dosing 6ml of all for reef I wouldn't switch to 2 part. I think when your dosing allot of all for reef it makes $ sense to change to 2 part. On the other hand 1300ml of kalk per day on a 60 gallon seems like allot. Seems like you could pull back on the kalk dosage. Are you dosing kalk through top off?

I'm at 1700+ml per day on a 40B.

 

[hans4811]

Is that correct 6ml of all for reef and 1300ml of kalk ? If your only dosing 6ml of all for reef I wouldn't switch to 2 part. I think when your dosing allot of all for reef it makes $ sense to change to 2 part. On the other hand 1300ml of kalk per day on a 60 gallon seems like allot. Seems like you could pull back on the kalk dosage. Are you dosing kalk through top off?

That’s not a lot…I dose 3 Liters a day on a 70g total system on a heavy SPS system, about 2.5 yrs old.

why not just up the kalk and forget the AFR ? What I did…see here…https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...ace-2-part-dosing-in-a-smaller-system.912482/

….ended up just using a Brute container btw…