Copper Medication

[Jay Hemdal]

I like how your thinking coming up with new ideas but since the copper does clear the parasite for 1-2 month would this not rule this out? I have not read the article..

There actually is no evidence of "copper resistant" protozoans, just anecdotes. Most cases stem from improper treatment. In this case, using copper power at too low of a dose for only half the normal treatment time. True genetic resistance is pretty rare - it takes generations of the parasite being exposed to sub-lethal doses of a medication.

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

Well that's impossible to run the tank fishless its 600 gallons and some fish are 16 " big and over 20 fish. So its impossible to have the tank fishless
any other ideas would be greatly appreciated Thanks

My tank is larger and must be done especially in my case if coral and inverts are present. TTM is your other options and hyposalinity will not work UNLESS tank is fish only. Yes, as jay stated would have to pull the fish

 

[sc50964]

There actually is no evidence of "copper resistant" protozoans, just anecdotes. Most cases stem from improper treatment. In this case, using copper power at too low of a dose for only half the normal treatment time. True genetic resistance is pretty rare - it takes generations of the parasite being exposed to sub-lethal doses of a medication.

Jay

That’s true for that referenced thread but that’s not the pt.

this op did it right - 2.5ppm with copper power for 30 days and still gets ich. The fact that he also did it’s multiple times also made it sound like he did everything he could with the copper treatment - he cannot go higher. Hence that establishes the basis for copper resistant strain which I agree is highly rare but still possible. Op is looking for an alternate solution after all.

New recommendation for chelated copper

WARNING: The below recommendations are only applicable to chelated copper (e.g. Copper Power, Coppersafe). They DO NOT APPLY to Cupramine or any other forms of copper. Forward: After consulting with a public aquarium and our very own @Dierks, below are new recommendations for using chelated...

humble.fish

 

[sc50964]

Is there any difference or is one better than the other between Fritz Copper & Copper power? I have used copper power several times and the problem keeps coming back in month or two Ick I believe no one can tell me for sure but it appears to be a form of ick! Thanks for any input or other medication I can use in a fish only tank 600 gallons. This is getting tiresome going on 3 years fighting this problem(parasite).
Thanks

Back to your original question. Check out the following thread

New recommendation for chelated copper

WARNING: The below recommendations are only applicable to chelated copper (e.g. Copper Power, Coppersafe). They DO NOT APPLY to Cupramine or any other forms of copper. Forward: After consulting with a public aquarium and our very own @Dierks, below are new recommendations for using chelated...

humble.fish

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Back to your original question. Check out the following thread

New recommendation for chelated copper

WARNING: The below recommendations are only applicable to chelated copper (e.g. Copper Power, Coppersafe). They DO NOT APPLY to Cupramine or any other forms of copper. Forward: After consulting with a public aquarium and our very own @Dierks, below are new recommendations for using chelated...

humble.fish

We've been saying that here since 2020. Both Copper Power and Coppersafe need to be dosed at 2.5 ppm from the start if there is an active infection. Too many fish were being lost due to "slow ramp up" and low doses of copper that people were suggesting.

Back to my original thought - I've been working on this case in another thread for quite some time. It is very unusual. That's why I circled back to my thought that this is a case of misdiagnosis. Because I have a variety of microscopes handy, I always confirm issues via skin scrapes, something that the OP isn't able to do.

@puccie1 - I went back and scanned your threads from earlier this year - I didn't see any evidence of marine ich in the pictures you posted of the angel, puffer or trigger. Was there another thread about ich? I'm wondering even more now that we need to fine tune the diagnosis here. Can you post pictures?

Jay

 

[sc50964]

We've been saying that here since 2020. Both Copper Power and Coppersafe need to be dosed at 2.5 ppm from the start if there is an active infection. Too many fish were being lost due to "slow ramp up" and low doses of copper that people were suggesting.

Back to my original thought - I've been working on this case in another thread for quite some time. It is very unusual. That's why I circled back to my thought that this is a case of misdiagnosis. Because I have a variety of microscopes handy, I always confirm issues via skin scrapes, something that the OP isn't able to do.

@puccie1 - I went back and scanned your threads from earlier this year - I didn't see any evidence of marine ich in the pictures you posted of the angel, puffer or trigger. Was there another thread about ich? I'm wondering even more now that we need to fine tune the diagnosis here. Can you post pictures?

Jay

Is there a thread on this forum that has more info on this conclusion that the application of immediate 2.5ppm concentration saves more fish than the ramp up approach which humble fish has been saying for years before talking about the 2.0ppm immediate approach in the recent years?

Always nice to read up more on this.

I personally think that there shouldn’t be a one size fits all solution. Depends on the condition of the fish, different dosage should be applied.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Is there a thread on this forum that has more info on this conclusion that the immediate 2.5ppm saves more fish than the ramp up approach which humble fish has been saying for years before talking about the 2.0ppm immediate approach in the recent years?

Always nice to read up more on this.

I personally think that there shouldn’t be a one size fits all solution. Depends on the condition of the fish, different dosage should be applied.

The only reason for not adding the copper all at once is because many people do not have a solid value for their tank's actual water volume. Adding partial doses over time allows them to adjust the dose as needed and not overshoot the mark. People were extrapolating that out, and I was seeing copper ramp of times for 5 to as many as 9 days! This is dangerous with active infections, and fish were dying from the parasites before a full treatment level was even reached. Of course, they then blamed "copper toxicity" (grin).

Now - Ionic copper like copper/citric acid DOES need to be ramped up slowly, over 72 hours. That also has much more varied toxicity with different species (it is very toxic to flame angelfish for example). Much of what you read about "copper" is based on problems with this formulation. I used it myself for about 25 years, before that, I used coppersafe (late 70's). I've since gone back to coppersafe about 10 years ago.

I know what you're saying about different fish tolerating different copper doses, but actually, with copper power and coppersafe, it is pretty consistent between species.

Our current quarantine protocol is on the first page of this thread (we edit it as changes are warranted):

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Fastpitch]

I've often taken coppersafe for up to 45 days, and in one case, six months. Have you gone that long yet?

Jay

Jay,

Can you share what conditions or circumstances led to your treatment for extended periods beyond thirty days? I am struggling with a recent outbreak and am trying to troubleshoot possible misteps.

 

[puccie1]

Apparently what I been battling must be resilient to copper and meds, hypo hasn't work and its good if I leave copper in tank even a low dosage once totally removed it comes back in several weeks.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay,

Can you share what conditions or circumstances led to your treatment for extended periods beyond thirty days? I am struggling with a recent outbreak and am trying to troubleshoot possible misteps.

The six month time was in a marine system at a retail pet store where we held fish long term under coppersafe. The 45 days were cases where I was following my protocol of holding fish in copper for 30 days beyond the date that the last symptoms were seen.

Jay

 

[Fastpitch]

The six month time was in a marine system at a retail pet store where we held fish long term under coppersafe. The 45 days were cases where I was following my protocol of holding fish in copper for 30 days beyond the date that the last symptoms were seen.

Jay

Thanks.

I think the second might be my scenario. I am still showing symptoms over two weeks in and am starting to question myself. I think this is because I did a slow ramp.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks.

I think the second might be my scenario. I am still showing symptoms over two weeks in and am starting to question myself. I think this is because I did a slow ramp.

Well, copper doesn’t really start to work until you reach a full dose, so start counting days at that point.
Jay