Coral Fish Tank Currently Has Ich

[blecki]

but they don’t have anything in the tank that could make them sick in the first place? Anything can make them sick, like a fluctuation in temperature, a bad serving of food or sudden aggression from another fish. So if they get sick, can that cause an ich outbreak and now all of the fish should be pulled out and quarantined ?

Fish don't get ich without ich being present. The parasite has to be there. If you never introduce it then they would never get it. But - you started this thread by saying -

So my tank has ich and many fish have died and some are still sick.

Therefore, ich is present. Any new fish added will be exposed and at risk.

True, but keep in mind that I said medicating not just quarantining. I said medicating with copper.

I know what you said. It doesn't matter. Copper is the shampoo in the lice analogy. Just like the shampoo doesn't stop the child from catching lice again, neither does the copper stop the fish from catching the disease.

 

[blecki]

It does require a lot more effort, however, and it may become a part time or full time job for some folks. Unfortunately, I don’t have that luxury.

Then my advice if you absolutely can't quarantine fish is a) Get a little 10 gallon with a hob filter to QT inverts. b) Deal with the current disease (Sorry - no way around this. Either let it run it's course, remove the fish and treat, or if it's ich - remove inverts and do hypo) c) From then onwards only buy pre-quarantined fish from a seller like DrReef who has a reputation to maintain.

Edit: Where 'run its course' means 'all fish die'. Survivors of ich can still carry it and infect new fish even if they themselves are 'immunized'. Supposedly for years after the original infection.

Or option D) Ich management. But this is more successful on old tanks.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

yes, makes more sense. I guess prevention is key to our success, of course, nothing is billet proof, but it helps out our chances. It does require a lot more effort, however, and it may become a part time or full time job for some folks. Unfortunately, I don’t have that luxury.

For this, you can order pre-QT'ed fish from a number of reputable vendors - if you don't want to do your own QT, this costs a little more, but greatly decreases the chance of disease-laden fish entering your tank (some places - like Dr. Reef's) also QT inverts, and few QT corals.

So, there are definitely ways around doing the QT yourself.

Well I’ve been doing both for my fish .. I’ve been feeding very quality food 3 to 4 times a day and have been testing water consistently and changing the water often. That’s the most frustrating part of all of this. I feel like if all of my efforts, time & money have gone for not. & now i have an upset wife as well‍

This is a good place to start from honestly:

-How big is your tank? What are the dimensions? If you have a sump with it, how many total gallons of water are there in the system? Would you share a pic here of the tank for us?

-How have you been doing the QT? What size of tank, what equipment, what type and level of copper and how have you measured it?

-What exactly are you feeding?

-What exactly are your parameters? Have you double-checked your salinity with a calibrated instrument?

-What fish, inverts, and corals do you have?

 

[southeastfishaddict]

Fish don't get ich without ich being present. The parasite has to be there. If you never introduce it then they would never get it. But - you started this thread by saying -


Therefore, ich is present. Any new fish added will be exposed and at risk.


I know what you said. It doesn't matter. Copper is the shampoo in the lice analogy. Just like the shampoo doesn't stop the child from catching lice again, neither does the copper stop the fish from catching the disease.

Understood, and my point exactly. How do we know if a fish wasn’t exposed to ich in the passed? It may of had it and it went away temporarily with copper treatment at the LFS. Then we take it into our home and treat it again. We stick in our display tank, the fish gets a little stressed and before you know it, it has ich again and so do all of the other fish. Riddle me that one..

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

@blecki , thank you for explaining things better, lol. I'm multitasking right now... I knew what I WANTED to say, but you said it better

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Understood, and my point exactly. How do we know if a fish wasn’t exposed to ich in the passed? It may of had it and it went away temporarily with copper treatment at the LFS. Then we take it into our home and treat it again. We stick in our display tank, the fish gets a little stressed and before you know it, it has ich again and so do all of the other fish. Riddle me that one..

In that scenario, your tank still has ich and the fish was exposed when you put it in the display.

 

[Dom]

It's the same as people. You quarantine to stop the disease spreading.

You're supposed to QT and medicate before they get into your tank, so that they don't bring the disease with them. It doesn't make them immune to anything.

You're not QTing to protect the new fish - you're doing it to protect the fish already in the tank. But if the tank already has ich, any new fish added will be exposed to it.

I really doubt the nets at the LFS are factors in disease at all. The tanks at your LFS are not closed systems. Usually entire banks of them run off the same sump. Any disease in one is in all no matter what nets they use.

Well said.

 

[Yang’s Blue Paradise]

yes, makes more sense. I guess prevention is key to our success, of course, nothing is billet proof, but it helps out our chances. It does require a lot more effort, however, and it may become a part time or full time job for some folks. Unfortunately, I don’t have that luxury.

Yeah I personally don’t have the time to quarantine everything so I try to keep the ich population low. By using UV and feeding good nutritious food

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Understood, and my point exactly. How do we know if a fish wasn’t exposed to ich in the passed? It may of had it and it went away temporarily with copper treatment at the LFS. Then we take it into our home and treat it again. We stick in our display tank, the fish gets a little stressed and before you know it, it has ich again and so do all of the other fish. Riddle me that one..

If the fish was treated (properly) for ich, then breaks out with ich in the future, there was a failure of biosecurity - the ich could have been introduced by another fish, by an invert, by a coral, by macroalgae, even by something like a contaminated culture of phyto or pods.

In order to ensure the ich doesn't pop up, everything wet/live needs QT'd.

If you never quarantined, then ich has probably been in your tank for years.

From what I've seen with ich management on here, ich will basically remain managed and under control (seemingly nonexistent in the tank) as long the fish are in excellent health (and as long as the outbreak doesn't get too bad for the tank - not necessarily for the individual fish, but for the tank as a whole). As soon as a fish gets stressed/weakened, however, there will be an outbreak like you just had with your tang.

To say it another way, your tang isn't really cured, it's just healthy enough to hold the parasites at bay at the moment. Your other fish likely have ich too and are just asymptomatic at the moment like your tang. So, if something stresses/weakens them, you'll have another outbreak that seemingly appears from nowhere. To prevent another outbreak, you have to keep the fish in great health - low stress, good food (LRS and macroalgae are great; some of Hikari's stuff is really good too - like their Mega Marine line - but some of their other marine-oriented food options aren't as good from what I recall), good water quality, etc. are key.

This is why I typically suggest for people who are considering not quarantining to look at some of Paul B's ich management stuff, as he talks about good care being necessary for good fish health too. (This is also why I typically suggest that newcomers to the hobby buy pre-quarantined fish if they don't want to do a full, medicated QT - fish that don't have diseases/parasites should be a lot harder to accidentally kill, as they won't have a potentially lethal disease outbreak every time the aquarist makes a mistake while learning the ropes).

I'm not sure with brook, velvet, flukes, etc. but ich can hide indefinitely on fish until something stresses them - this is why some people buy apparently healthy fish or have apparently healthy fish for years, and then (seemingly from nowhere) ich pops up (see the second and third quotes below).

 

[Dom]

True, people do quarantine, but using the covid vaccine as an example. People get treated with the vaccine, so that it can help them be immune to the sickness. That’s where I’m aiming at with my initial question. Since the new fish has been medicated, would it just get the sniffles if you were to put it in the ich tank?

A vaccine is preemptive. Treating disease in the QT is not.

No.

Think of it this way; you aren't medicating the fish in QT, you're exterminating the flukes and other disease-carrying parasites they have brought with them.

 

[southeastfishaddict]

A vaccine is preemptive. Treating disease in the QT is not.

No.

Think of it this way; you aren't medicating the fish in QT, you're exterminating the flukes and other disease-carrying parasites they have brought with them.

Well there are many posts on here where they mention in a lot of detail on how to treat & medicate fish in QT. Even fish that had valvet or ich. If they notice fish has parasites in quarantine what do most do… take it back to the LFS?

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Well there are many posts on here were they mention in a lot of detail on how to treat & medicate fish in QT. Even fish that had valvet or ich. If they notice fish has parasites in quarantine what do most do… take it back to the LFS?

I think what Dom was trying to say is that treatment is reactive while vaccination is proactive - you vaccinate to prevent sickness, you treat to eliminate it.

It is generally suggested to assume that all fish are sick (they've probably been exposed to at least one disease somewhere along the line of getting from the ocean to your tank) - so you do treat all the fish in the quarantine, but it's assumed to be reactive treatment even if the fish don't show symptoms.

 

[southeastfishaddict]

I think what Dom was trying to say is that treatment is reactive while vaccination is proactive - you vaccinate to prevent sickness, you treat to eliminate it.

It is generally suggested to assume that all fish are sick (they've probably been exposed to at least one disease somewhere along the line of getting from the ocean to your tank) - so you do treat all the fish in the quarantine, but it's assumed to be reactive treatment even if the fish don't show symptoms.

Understood, so it’s safe to say that all tanks have some sort of ich in them, since most fish have been exposed to it, but may be symptom free.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Understood, so it’s safe to say that all tanks have some sort of ich in them, since most fish have been exposed to it.

Unless they've gone through a thorough QT, pretty much.

 

[southeastfishaddict]

Unless they've gone through a thorough QT, pretty much.

Even with QT and after being treated. it’s not a vaccine and they can have a relapse if they get sick of something.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Even with QT and after being treated. it’s not a vaccine and they can have a relapse if they get sick of something.

Only if the disease is allowed into the tank through a breach of biosecurity - by medicating the fish, you kill the disease on them and it can't come back unless they are exposed elsewhere. The only way they can be exposed is by things put in the water with them - if everything wet (inverts, corals, etc.) are quarantined for a sufficient fallow period, then the diseases on them will die off and be unable to return before you add the to the tank with the fish.

With all the diseases dead before they reach your fish, your fish cannot relapse because the diseases aren't alive to infect them.

 

[wheels4896]

Apologies if it's been posted already, but check out the humble fish h2o2 dosing protocol. Cured my tank of velvet.

 

[southeastfishaddict]

Only if the disease is allowed into the tank through a breach of biosecurity - by medicating the fish, you kill the disease on them and it can't come back unless they are exposed elsewhere. The only way they can be exposed is by things put in the water with them - if everything wet (inverts, corals, etc.) are quarantined for a sufficient fallow period, then the diseases on them will die off and be unable to return before you add the to the tank with the fish.

With all the diseases dead before they reach your fish, your fish cannot relapse because the diseases aren't alive to infect them.

Got it, that’s the best answer/response that I’ve received. Makes a lot of sense - thanks!

 

[southeastfishaddict]

For this, you can order pre-QT'ed fish from a number of reputable vendors - if you don't want to do your own QT, this costs a little more, but greatly decreases the chance of disease-laden fish entering your tank (some places - like Dr. Reef's) also QT inverts, and few QT corals.

So, there are definitely ways around doing the QT yourself.

This is a good place to start from honestly:

-How big is your tank? What are the dimensions? If you have a sump with it, how many total gallons of water are there in the system? Would you share a pic here of the tank for us?

-How have you been doing the QT? What size of tank, what equipment, what type and level of copper and how have you measured it?

-What exactly are you feeding?

-What exactly are your parameters? Have you double-checked your salinity with a calibrated instrument?

-What fish, inverts, and corals do you have?

Reefer MAX 625 G2+ Aquarium
Marine-Spec Cabinet
Sump & Pre-Glued Plumbing
(2x) ReefLED 160 and Mounting Arm
(1x) Reefer DC Skimmer 900
(2x) ReefWave 45 Gyre Powerhead
(1x) ReefRun 7000 Return Pump
(1x) ReefRun Controller
(1x) ReefMat 1200 Automatic Filter Roller
(1x) ReefATO+ Auto Top Off System
(1x) Slide-Out Control Panel 60
(1x) Utility Basket

Specifications:
Total System Water Volume: 164 Gallons
Display Tank Water Volume: 132 Gallons
Dimensions: 59.1“L x 25.6“W x 23.6“H
Glass Thickness (front/sides): 0.75"
Glass Thickness (bottom): 0.59"

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Reefer MAX 625 G2+ Aquarium
Marine-Spec Cabinet
Sump & Pre-Glued Plumbing
(2x) ReefLED 160 and Mounting Arm
(1x) Reefer DC Skimmer 900
(2x) ReefWave 45 Gyre Powerhead
(1x) ReefRun 7000 Return Pump
(1x) ReefRun Controller
(1x) ReefMat 1200 Automatic Filter Roller
(1x) ReefATO+ Auto Top Off System
(1x) Slide-Out Control Panel 60
(1x) Utility Basket

Specifications:
Total System Water Volume: 164 Gallons
Display Tank Water Volume: 132 Gallons
Dimensions: 59.1“L x 25.6“W x 23.6“H
Glass Thickness (front/sides): 0.75"
Glass Thickness (bottom): 0.59"

Just to double check here while waiting for the other info, your Nitrate is 0, and your Phosphate is 3? Is that supposed to be 0.03 or 0.3 instead of 3?