Newbie Mistake Over stocked my tank way too quickly!

[Lavey29]

Is this the same die off that you posted about several times already or a different occurrence? I'm fairly certain most questions have already been previously addressed in one or more of your previous threads.

When Buying Fish from LFS

Good evening all, I’m new to this salt water fish hobby. I had a fish tank installed right before Christmas and I went fish crazy like your typical newbie. During the process I had many fish die including a few tangs and a powder blue today. My mind has been clobbering me on what went wrong...

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Coral Fish Tank Currently Has Ich

So my tank has ich and many fish have died and some are still sick. I’m currently treating the DP tank with PolypLab, not sure if it will help. I have a large tank with lots of rock, so it will be extremely difficult to take out the fish. My question is, if I buy fish that have been...

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Tank just got whiped-out with Ick or Valvet..

I dosed my tank with plolyp-labs for the passed week.. three times a day, with the recommended triple dose, but since just about every fish is dead now except a blue chromi, fox face & a three line wrasse should I keep dosing the crap or should I just stop medicating? I’m going to give the fish...

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Adding Coral & invertebrates

So my display tank just went through ich and the majority of my fish didn’t make it. Since I only have a few fish left, can I add coral and invertebrates without quarantining them? I don’t plan on getting any new fish for a while. Thank you in advance.

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Adding fish after ich outbreak

So I had a large ich infestation that killed most of my fish, except for a few that are doing well. It looks like they have survived, hopefully. Many of you claim that ich is in the majority of the fish tanks, including many of the fish shops that I have been to. They say that their tanks all...

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Newbie Mistake Over stocked my tank way too quickly!

Hello everyone, so I made a mistake and added about 30 fish in a 140 gallon tank in about a six week time period. I put in 100 pounds of rock, the micro bacteria quick start and bio filter media block so I thought I was good to go. Everything seemed to be going well, but suddenly the fish...

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That's a long list of death due to complete negligence and lack of respectful care of the fish. This is why agencies are actively trying to eliminate the reefing hobby with import bans on fish and coral.....very sad.

 

[southeastfishaddict]

Yes Sir, well keep in mind that the majority of fish keepers are not experts. And that’s why the subject of my thread says newbie mistake. I guess I can see how your a 10k member with those types of responses anyone can reach 10k in no time.

And I agree, fish & coral belong in the sea. You broke my heart.

 

[Lavey29]

Yes Sir, well keep in mind that the majority of fish keepers are not experts. And that’s why the subject of my thread says newbie mistake. I guess I can see how your a 10k member with those types of responses anyone can reach 10k in no time.

And I agree, fish & coral belong in the sea. You broke my heart.

If you had any meaningful respect for the hobby you would have patience and learn the basics of reefing and fish care and build your set up slowly allowing the tank to mature as you slowly add to it but you are of the mindset "I want a reef and I want it NOW". As long as you continue with this mindset you will never have success in the hobby with fish or corals. If you take 3 steps back and educate yourself better to the basics and then proceed on a sensible path with the well being of your inhabitants as your top priority then perhaps things will improve for you.

 

[southeastfishaddict]

I agree with your last response. I did want to get my reef/fish tank going as soon as possible, just like anyone else would in this hobby. I already beat myself over that many times, but it’s like beating a dead horse. Nothing good comes out of it. I’m the one that lost the money, time and effort so trust me, I did pay the price.

 

[Jekyl]

Sorry for your losses, I know it wasn't easy on you. Here is some material that will help future endeavors. As far as how many fish, keep in mind that every fish added needs its own personal space. This means each fish or pair should have its own cave or sleeping area that no other fish tries to take over.

45 Day Fallow periods

I've been doing some research into the "76 day fallow period". I never heard of that prior to coming to Reef2Reef this past summer. I had always used 32 days as the maximum time for a tomont to remain viable under tropical conditions, and then I would round up to 45 days to help ensure that...

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Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[twentyleagues]

I agree with your last response. I did want to get my reef/fish tank going as soon as possible, just like anyone else would in this hobby. I already beat myself over that many times, but it’s like beating a dead horse. Nothing good comes out of it. I’m the one that lost the money, time and effort so trust me, I did pay the price.

You did. Its now a matter of what did you learn and can you apply it? Look into proper QT and cycle. Remember its not a race and you may have to restrain yourself. I have these issues as well as do others.

 

[Antaguana]

It seems quite odd to me that you had that many fish in there and the ammonia and nitrite NEVER measured anything but 0ppm. And the nitrate was 5ppm once.

If you had 30 fish in there you must have been feeding so the question for me is... Where did the nitrogen go? Surely you would expect to see some ammonia, at some point and certainly you would expect to see some nitrate.

I would question the accuracy of those tests.

Only way I can see that happening is if you had added dry rock and water with no source of ammonia (no fish or food) and took all those tests. In which case, yeah the tank isn't cycling ammonia as you have not put any ammonia in it. Then if you added a bunch of fish you are effectively adding them to a totally new uncycled tank. In which case we would expect a spike in ammonia. Are any of those tests from the time during / after the fish were dying?

 

[southeastfishaddict]

It seems quite odd to me that you had that many fish in there and the ammonia and nitrite NEVER measured anything but 0ppm. And the nitrate was 5ppm once.

If you had 30 fish in there you must have been feeding so the question for me is... Where did the nitrogen go? Surely you would expect to see some ammonia, at some point and certainly you would expect to see some nitrate.

I would question the accuracy of those tests.

Only way I can see that happening is if you had added dry rock and water with no source of ammonia (no fish or food) and took all those tests. In which case, yeah the tank isn't cycling ammonia as you have not put any ammonia in it. Then if you added a bunch of fish you are effectively adding them to a totally new uncycled tank. In which case we would expect a spike in ammonia. Are any of those tests from the time during / after the fish were dying?

Antaguana, yes, I put in 100 pounds of rock, the micro bacteria quick start and bio filter media block so I thought I was good to go. I was also feed 2-3 times a day and more when I suspected a fish may have had ich. I was told by many to feed more, so I did. Those tests were from when I had the tank running with the fish. After I lost the fish, I stopped testing.

 

[Spare time]

If I was being serious I wouldn’t be hear asking for your advise losing time… I mean spare time.

Well I asked because I didn't realize you were a public aquarium.

 

[Antaguana]

I don't see how you could have 30 fish + their food and get 0ppm ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

I'm not saying you are lying. I'm saying something is wrong. The chemistry just doesn't add up.

If you put nitrogen in it has to go somewhere. Usually that means the fish eat food and excrete ammonia from their gills and in urine. Or the food decays. Either way you get ammonia, then bacteria turn that into nitrite, then more bacteria turn it to nitrate. That is the end of the normal nitrogen cycle (not really a cycle as the nitrate doesn't turn back into ammonia so I don't really know why we call it a cycle).

Nitrate will stay in the system unless you do something to remove it. Options are, water changes to physically take nitrate out. Have plants / algae turn it into their biomass (and then usually you take that out). Or some chemical to lock it up so it isn't "in" the water and more.

Did you do anything to remove the nitrate?

 

[SheldonC]

Yes Sir, well keep in mind that the majority of fish keepers are not experts. And that’s why the subject of my thread says newbie mistake. I guess I can see how your a 10k member with those types of responses anyone can reach 10k in no time.

And I agree, fish & coral belong in the sea. You broke my heart.

I don't think he's calling you a non-expert or any reefers expert. But I think the general feeling is that you have all these resources (via forums, YouTube, etc.) and still dumped way too many fish into an uncycled tank and ended up with 29 losses. I also agree with others, if you're going to just respond with snarky responses to people going "what the heck", then expect to get more of them. Don't come onto the forums if you're just trying to pick a fight.

 

[Lavey29]

I agree with your last response. I did want to get my reef/fish tank going as soon as possible, just like anyone else would in this hobby. I already beat myself over that many times, but it’s like beating a dead horse. Nothing good comes out of it. I’m the one that lost the money, time and effort so trust me, I did pay the price.

Well alright then. Patience is the primary element to success here. Hopefully you embrace that now and research the basics and use the forum as a helpful guide to restarting your system with success this time. Rather then buying a bunch of non QT fish at once, buy 4 or 5 that have been professionally QT for you by the vendor. See how they do over a month then repeat the process the following month and so on.

First you have to fallow your tank or everything you subsequently add may come down with the same disease again .

 

[SheldonC]

I don't see how you could have 30 fish + their food and get 0ppm ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

I'm not saying you are lying. I'm saying something is wrong. The chemistry just doesn't add up.

If you put nitrogen in it has to go somewhere. Usually that means the fish eat food and excrete ammonia from their gills and in urine. Or the food decays. Either way you get ammonia, then bacteria turn that into nitrite, then more bacteria turn it to nitrate. That is the end of the normal nitrogen cycle (not really a cycle as the nitrate doesn't turn back into ammonia so I don't really know why we call it a cycle).

Nitrate will stay in the system unless you do something to remove it. Options are, water changes to physically take nitrate out. Have plants / algae turn it into their biomass (and then usually you take that out). Or some chemical to lock it up so it isn't "in" the water and more.

Did you do anything to remove the nitrate?

I have the same puzzled look. I have an 80 gallon tank that is four months old with only two clowns as it's cycling and I've had measurable nitrate from just those two (haven't done a WC yet due to cycle)

 

[Antaguana]

I put in 100 pounds of rock, the micro bacteria quick start and bio filter media block so I thought I was good to go.

It sounds like you didn't feed the bacteria?

Perhaps no-one told you, I look really hard for information and find it hard to find some of the answer I am looking for so I can see how you might miss it.

Bacteria eat, we tend not to think about it because bacteria are everywhere in the environment and no-one actively feeds them so we tend to forget but they still have to eat.

If you put dry rock H2O, and salt in a glass box and chuck in a bunch of bacteria, the bacteria will starve. Which I can tell you from experience you see as an increase in ammonia as the bacteria decay.

People recommend a few different options to "feed" the bacteria.

1 ammonia (often as ammonia chloride). You can buy ammonia to feed the the bacteria when you are cycling a new tank. This is often called no-fish start or something like that. People like this because you can measure exactly how much ammonia you add and watch the readings go down and the nitrite and nitrate go up as the bacteria convert it.

2. Phantom feeding. Simply feed the bacteria small amounts of fish food. Its a little harder to know how much to put in so in that respect it is less scientific, but some people prefer it as you will need fish food anyway once you have fish and there are other things in the food that some bacteria may need that is not in chemical ammonia (like phosphate)

3. Fish in cycle. Have a small number (1 or 2) small hardy fish (often people use clowns) in the tank and feed them, the food they don't eat and the ammonia they excrete will feed to Bactria.

Either way you want to see the ammonia go up and then down. And the nitrate go up (often the nitrite goes up and then down too, but this is less certain not not critical). Before people say the tank is cycled.

Another thing to be careful of is that isn't an and point . That just says the bacteria can now cope with the amount of ammonia you are adding each day. As you add more load (ir more fish and more food) the bacteria colony need to get larger to be able to keep up... So really you start with a small load and slowly add fish and slowly build the bacteria and slowly concert more ammonia per day and then you can slowly add more fish.


I have heard people here say that this hobby is actually about keeping water. If you keep happy water then you can have happy fish in it.


You are in control of a whole little eco system here. Think of your fish as astronauts and you are their life support system. Their water is like your air, they are in it all the time and totally rely on you to keep it safe for them. To me this is the really exciting bit. It's not just having a lovely moving picture to look at, it's the responsibility and challenge of maintaining a life support system.

My advise would be read as much in here as you can and try to understand. Unfortunately too many LFS seem happy to sell thousands of dollars of equipment and fish without making sure you understand what you need to do to be successful.

 

[exnisstech]

Yes Sir, well keep in mind that the majority of fish keepers are not experts

As stated there is enough info available to prevent mistakes like this from happening. Or should prevent it.

I’m the one that lost the money, time and effort so trust me, I did pay the price.

The fish paid the ultimate price.

Nothing useful for me to add so I leave it as that. Good luck moving forward.
I will ask if your lfs was aware of how you were stocking? If so and they didn't recommend against it I would look for a new lfs.

 

[Antaguana]

I will ask if your lfs was aware of how you were stocking? If so and they didn't recommend against it I would look for a new lfs.

This is a good point. There is a lot of info on this forum and you can learn a lot. Unfortunately a lot of people don't come looking untill it's too late.

It would be great if the LFS took a slightly less short term approach to their sales and realised a happy fish keeper is going to make them more money in the long run rather than making a quick buck off someone and then telling them... Oh you did it all wrong and it's your fault they are dead.

It's hard to find a LFS who are willing to sit down with a newbie for a couple of hours and really help them understand what they need to do and how they need to do it.

There are many people on this forum who pretty much will do that. (After first asking you to read a couple of stickied threads). People here are very generous with their time. But it is a lot of reading and that's certainly not going to work for everyone.

I think both the LFS have a responsibility to educate and the keeper has a responsibility to seak education.

 

[Antaguana]

like adding many tangs at the same time etc.

Tangs can be quite territorial towards other tangs. When you add one tang it will think "any area in here not already claimed is mine now". Then if you add another tang it will think "get out of my space" and can bully the new commer.

This is why people say you should add tangs last and all at once, to try to limit the chances of an established tang picking on new ones.

But you have to balance that with, make sure the tank is big enough and there is enough bacteria tj handle the ammonia load etc etc etc.

Yeah it is easy to see a bit of advise and follow it and then find out you missed some other really important info. Especially in the 5 minute style videos. You often need to watch 20 of those at once to really understand any of them. It can be pretty misleading and can seem like half the video are contradicting the other half.

 

[southeastfishaddict]

This is a good point. There is a lot of info on this forum and you can learn a lot. Unfortunately a lot of people don't come looking untill it's too late.

It would be great if the LFS took a slightly less short term approach to their sales and realised a happy fish keeper is going to make them more money in the long run rather than making a quick buck off someone and then telling them... Oh you did it all wrong and it's your fault they are dead.

It's hard to find a LFS who are willing to sit down with a newbie for a couple of hours and really help them understand what they need to do and how they need to do it.

There are many people on this forum who pretty much will do that. (After first asking you to read a couple of stickied threads). People here are very generous with their time. But it is a lot of reading and that's certainly not going to work for everyone.

I think both the LFS have a responsibility to educate and the keeper has a responsibility to seak education.

Thank you Antaguana, you provide very good quality feedback and I appreciate that. And yes, I was expecting to get better results from the LFS where I was buying the fish. I bought 95% of them from the same place. I was working directly with the owner and he helped install my 625 max Red Sea aquarium. I also retained his store to do the maintenance, water changes on my tank. Since he has a high end store and a 10,000 gallon tank with gigantic sharks in it I was relying on him for advice. He was also aware that this was my first marine tank. One of his employees simply told me to take it slow after a few times of purchasing… but didn’t really know what he met by that.. until now..

 

[Antaguana]

To answer your original question

It's hard to know if you had ick or if it was an ammonia spike. I certainly don't know I'd have no idea.

30 dead fish (kind of regardless of what they dies from in the first place) would certainly result in some bad water quality (I wouldn't want to live in a house that had 30 people die in it last month). So changing the water and leaving the tank fallow to get rid of disease won't hurt.

In that time I would suggest read up on the forums and restart your bacterial colony. I'd say to to work out why all your results were zero. get some ammonia chloride and follow the instructions on that to dose the ammonia to a desired level (usually somewhere in the rejoin of 1-2ppm). If you follow those instructions you should be able to predict what ammonia reading you will get, then add the bacteria and you should see the ammonia come down over a few days to weeks (depending on many factors) and the nitrate go up.

If the LFS keeps saying you are getting 0ppm ammonia just put some ammonia chloride and some water in a clean bucket (so you know there is ammonia and there is no bacteria to remove it) and then get them to test that .. if they still say it's zero then you REALLY need to find a new LFS cos they either don't Know how to use the test kit or they are lying to you to sell you more fish.

 

[southeastfishaddict]

I still have a bunch of cleaner shrimp, crabs, snails, starfish and coral in the tank.. it only has one chromi fish that I’m trying to get out, so that I can leave it fishless for 10 + weeks.