What would you do after Ich breakout - Start over or maintain

[Goldberg]

Hello Reefers,

I would like to ask your advise based on your experience with Ich breakout, for awhile everything seemed to be peaceful in my tank, was happy adding some small corals for testing, its 4 month old tank approx.
Then, two weeks after the last fish - which the shop promised me it was quarantined ( I kept it with him for two weeks isolated to make sure) but still the breakout took it place

Seems im a bit unlucky with fish, I got two clowns who refused to eat since adaption, lost their color and died in their hospital, then out of remaining 11 the Ich martyred 4 so far, ive seen spots on 3 more who trying to fight it. I started with polyp lab medic as it seems not easy to catch them in the tank.

Now hopefully if i manage to pull few fish alive at the end of this experience. im thinking what would be wiser, to keep the fish and manage the parasite incase it pops up again, or shall i remove the fish totally and keep it fishless tank with few corals for 2 months to (hopefully) Ich is no more in the system.


Thanks,

 

[jerrod]

This is an entire personal choice. I dealt with velvet a few years ago and took out all fish and went fallow in the display. That was only because I had a plumbed Frag system that I could use to quarantine the survivors easily. Many deal with Ich and have successful reefs that last years while some deal with regular losses with it.
My train of thought is if you are planning to quarantine fish to prevent parasites/disease that can wipe out the remaining fish, then throw them in a tank that is already infected then the chance of a new additions surviving is less due to stress of the quarantine process. A lot of shops say they quarantine but they just have copper at therapeutic levels and some even have their isolation/holding tank plumbed in with other tanks therefore defeating the purpose or add other fish during the quarantine process.

 

[davidcalgary29]

I think that ich management really only works in mature tanks with healthy biomes -- conditions not typically seen in tanks younger than five years old. It's really not that difficult to pull the fish, treat them in a hospital tank, and let your display go fallow for a minimum of 45 days. "Management" sounds like a viable and reasoned treatment system, but it really isn't for many newer owners with younger tanks, who finds out that it works right up until the point that it doesn't.

 

[JD117]

display go fallow for a minimum of 45 day

Just for my own benefit as I'm considering fallow. I've seen it ranging from 45 days to 76. Is that because of different strains of ich?

 

[davidcalgary29]

Just for my own benefit as I'm considering fallow. I've seen it ranging from 45 days to 76. Is that because of different strains of ich?

Unknown, as the specific variety of ich studied in each study was not mentioned. There are a very few scientific studies that have been conducted on ich propogation -- decades old, now -- and the different times reflect the different conclusions reached by each study. The most commonly-cited study stated that ich was no longer active after a period of 72(76) days. That, I understand, was in conditions of a cooler tank. The researchers there also added in an additional period of four days, but I'm not sure what the scientific basis was for doing this.

Many reefkeepers accept a 45-day fallow period as a reasonable alternative. 99% of parasitic infections (ich and velvet) have shorter reproduction periods in tropical water temperatures than this.

 

[GARRIGA]

Maintain since survivors likely built up immunity as they would in the wild which isn’t sterile.

 

[davidcalgary29]

Maintain since survivors likely built up immunity as they would in the wild which isn’t sterile.

This position is also quite controversial. Most organisms do not build up immunity to ectoparasites -- ich and velvet are not viral or bacterial diseases -- but are ultimately overwhelmed by them if they cannot escape the environment which causes parasitic overload. Of course there are physiological differences between fish and mammals, but repeated ectoparasitic infection (like winter tick infestations on cervids) causes debilitation and death, not some type of superimmunity.

 

[GARRIGA]

This position is also quite controversial. Most organisms do not build up immunity to ectoparasites -- ich and velvet are not viral or bacterial diseases -- but are ultimately overwhelmed by them if they cannot escape the environment which causes parasitic overload. Of course there are physiological differences between fish and mammals, but repeated ectoparasitic infection (like winter tick infestations on cervids) causes debilitation and death, not some type of superimmunity.

Literature I’ve found along with discussions here since the 70s indicate that continued exposure to ich builds immunity but that exposure needs to continue. Why I propose maintenance vs starting over and especially since starting over doesn’t guarantee ich won’t return since most aren’t going to properly quarantine every item entering from fish to snail to piece of rock just added.

 

[Nemo&Friends]

You will get many different opinions. I am just going to tell you what happened to me. My 3 years old Hippo tank got ick for no apparent reason, as I had not added anything in the tank in a long time.
He got very sick, and was almost entirely white. I did not do anything, and did not give any medication but he recovered completely. No other fish got sick.
So I know my tank has ick, but my fish can fight it on their own. I have never quarantined anything.
However, my tank is quite old. Yours is brand new, which may make a difference.
There are many people who do "ick management", but many too who quarantine everything.
All the fish who survive in your tank will probably be immune or resistant to ick. I would not treat them as it might remove their immunity.
I think the main reason fish get sick is because they are stressed. You may have added too many fish too fast and they got stressed as your tank was not ready to handle them.
Also make sure your fish have many hiding place, I mean each should have their own private place. That will help a lot in preventing sickness.

 

[Evil1]

Search hydrogen peroxide ich treatment here. There are many posts about it. although peroxide does not kill ich it aids and helps keep fish health enough to get through ich cycle and build up immunity. The a look and decide your next course of action.

 

[davidcalgary29]

Search hydrogen peroxide ich treatment here. There are many posts about it. although peroxide does not kill ich it aids and helps keep fish health enough to get through ich cycle and build up immunity. The a look and decide your next course of action.

I think that OP probably has to head down the rabbit hole and discover the many, many threads on this. FWIW, the studies that I've read on H202 prophylactics have been done with velvet -- not ich.

 

[fishyjoes]

I had an ich outbreak early on, luckily I only had three fish at the time.
I moved the fish to a quarantine tank and treated with copper. I also raised the temperature in the display to 81 and did a fallow for 60 days (the midpoint between 45 and 76)

 

[GARRIGA]

You will get many different opinions. I am just going to tell you what happened to me. My 3 years old Hippo tank got ick for no apparent reason, as I had not added anything in the tank in a long time.
He got very sick, and was almost entirely white. I did not do anything, and did not give any medication but he recovered completely. No other fish got sick.
So I know my tank has ick, but my fish can fight it on their own. I have never quarantined anything.
However, my tank is quite old. Yours is brand new, which may make a difference.
There are many people who do "ick management", but many too who quarantine everything.
All the fish who survive in your tank will probably be immune or resistant to ick. I would not treat them as it might remove their immunity.
I think the main reason fish get sick is because they are stressed. You may have added too many fish too fast and they got stressed as your tank was not ready to handle them.
Also make sure your fish have many hiding place, I mean each should have their own private place. That will help a lot in preventing sickness.

Stress I believe to be the number one killer of most life. Learned that collecting/breeding boa constrictors 30 plus years. I’ve produced a thousand plus and have reared 100 plus and stress what I believe has caused most issues in the past. I also don’t keep them in sterile conditions and were I a kid again would stay away from antibacterial soap but would continue playing in mud.

Learned to avoid sterile environments in the 70s. Back then there was this concept of being sterile. I think often called the clinical method or something like that. Last I’m doing is keeping life in a bubble like John Travolta movie

 

[davidcalgary29]

Last I’m doing is keeping life in a bubble like John Travolta movie

Now that's the first time I've ever seen The Boy in the Plastic Bubble used as a cultural touchpoint on these forums.

 

[Goldberg]

Thank you everyone, appreciate the knowledge everyone shared. some points ill take carefully like getting fish slowly, I think i made a gap of 2-3 weeks before adding each 2 to 3 fish, but maybe its not enough. slower is the better.

I went by few shops to ask how would they deal with outbreak.
First, claimed the ich wiped out all fishes, mentioning people who bought most expensive tangs, he suggested fishless tank for 72 days.

Some suggested management of ich, they talked about their own aquariums where ich was once a visitors and killed some fish, while the other stayed strong for years - Feeding is key for them

Last few mentioned to take fish out treat them with cooper and get them back after 2 weeks.

All valid as they all treated it in their own ways, what i noticed so far, could be wrong though:

I tried to get a sailfin out but noticed extreme stress happened, i stopped because i felt all the fish were afraid to eat afterwards which let me fear getting them weaken further without food. Agree that stress can damage animals and humans alike.

Some fish like chromis and FoxFace seem strong compare to tangs or clowns not sure if some types of fish seem to be more hardy to face parasites compare to others. need to do more research to find out

it reminds me on what happened during Covid or winter Flu, people got it differently, but still who got it developed some immune to fight it back, but it doesnt mean it was totally eliminated, perhaps the healthiest got better chance to reduce the symptoms but not the infection, hard to tell how to get fish healthier apart from feeding them often. as some people around said they feed the fish every other day to reduce ammonia!

No matter how much you try to be careful against corals pests, or fish health there is also something about reef tanks to surprise you.

Still got alot to learn

 

[GARRIGA]

it reminds me on what happened during Covid or winter Flu, people got it differently, but still who got it developed some immune to fight it back, but it doesnt mean it was totally eliminated, perhaps the healthiest got better chance to reduce the symptoms but not the infection, hard to tell how to get fish healthier apart from feeding them often. as some people around said they feed the fish every other day to reduce ammonia!

With today's improvement and knowledge on filtration I think those days of feeding sparingly should go away. Lots of post claiming they struggle to keep nitrate and phosphates high enough. Many now exploring the fact ammonium might be preferred vs having to down convert nitrates but because we can measure nitrates that's still a thing. I'd rather overfeed and ensure my filtration solves it. Fish on the reef likely graze all day or perhaps feeding during certain tide stages. Don't know. Just know they don't feed every other day. Weather permitting.

Check out @Paul B for his simplistic approach to not worrying about pathogens. Similar to how I approach my boas although I don't feed them live worms but diet and stress what I believe to be the number once cause of them getting sick. All life for that matter.

 

[Cthulukelele]

It's personal preference. I've had ich in my tank since at least 6 months in 5 and a half years ago. I've only ever lost 1 fish to it and it was a fish that refused to eat and was recently added. Haven't had a spot on a fish in probably 3 years.

I'm on team "feed your fish well, don't overstock, keep water quality decent, minimize fish stress, and you won't usually have a problem" and IMO those should be goals to begin with. If you're very concerned, an oversized uv sterilizer set to a very low gph turnover can help.

That being said, most fish in the hobby don't eat well, are in improperly sized tanks for the long term, are constantly stressed, and are generally not fat, happy fish. This is the main reason my advice to people is rarely "just manage ich in your tank." Also there are certain very ich susceptible fish in the hobby that even with good husbandry can have ich problems like certain acanthurus tangs

 

[Goldberg]

With today's improvement and knowledge on filtration I think those days of feeding sparingly should go away. Lots of post claiming they struggle to keep nitrate and phosphates high enough. Many now exploring the fact ammonium might be preferred vs having to down convert nitrates but because we can measure nitrates that's still a thing. I'd rather overfeed and ensure my filtration solves it. Fish on the reef likely graze all day or perhaps feeding during certain tide stages. Don't know. Just know they don't feed every other day. Weather permitting.

Check out @Paul B for his simplistic approach to not worrying about pathogens. Similar to how I approach my boas although I don't feed them live worms but diet and stress what I believe to be the number once cause of them getting sick. All life for that matter.

Totally agree, thanks I will check out Paul approach. from various feedback in these stores I visit, it seems alot of people just feed pellets (except for some fish they said they only eat frozen foods. Never heard here someone feeds live worms, maybe its not that available in all places

 

[Goldberg]

That being said, most fish in the hobby don't eat well, are in improperly sized tanks for the long term, are constantly stressed, and are generally not fat, happy fish. This is the main reason my advice to people is rarely "just manage ich in your tank." Also there are certain very ich susceptible fish in the hobby that even with good husbandry can have ich problems like certain acanthurus tangs

Lucky you the Ich didnt get the upper hand in your tank

Thanks for the info. Noticed everyone who starts rushing to add the Dori tang, many experienced stay away.it makes sense to have proper fish age, size of tank. point taken its good to be careful with fish selection to add to the tank. I often thought the over sized fish in smaller tank arent completing the whole scene specially when corals are added, but it has other sides to consider as well.

 

[GARRIGA]

Totally agree, thanks I will check out Paul approach. from various feedback in these stores I visit, it seems alot of people just feed pellets (except for some fish they said they only eat frozen foods. Never heard here someone feeds live worms, maybe its not that available in all places

Can order the white worms online and grow them in a small fridge. I’m pretty sure how we grew black worms and tubifix back in the day. Hard to beat live food but does matter what you feed that live food.

Lots of pellets and frozen good but he does it to transfer the got contents to the fish. He goes into it in more detail. Not sure exactly all going on other than feeding live worms and fresh clams makes sense. Something I’m planning to include along with fish, shrimps and crabs from my fishing trips.