Could copper be killing my fish?

[Twosixpax]

A couple of weeks ago I noticed some corals receeding in my tank (Reefer S1000 G2) and tested for copper using a Hanna High Range Checker. Readings varied from 0.15 to as high as 0.6. The other invertebrates (coral banded shrimp, fire shrimp, conch all seem ok at this point). I began using Poly-fiilter pads and Cuprisorb but there is a lot of rock and sand in the system and the readings fluctuated for several days. I calibrated the checker using the Hanna calibration set yesterday and it was very accurate. The system tested at 0.36.

A starry blenny I'd added from Diver's Den a couple of weeks before I detected the copper began occasionally flashing on the sand bed but otherwise looked healthy, then suddenly died a week ago (swimming and eating in the am, found dead in the pm). Today one of my pair of golden headed sleeper gobies also died. I saw him flashing on the sand once yesterday, was eating this morning, but found him dead this afternoon (photos attached but I see no obvious signs of disease). I also saw a Royal Gramma flashing against some hair algae on a rock a week or so ago, but has since stopped and seems fine.

The source of the copper seems to have been an accidental contamination from a scented cleaning agent used in a washing machine when I washed and added socks back into the system. My RODI and freshly mixed water both test negative for copper. I have two systems and both tested positive for copper after the socks were washed. There are no fish in the second system yet.

My small foxface seems to have a cloudy area behind his gills, but given their propensity to change color I'm not sure if it's an issue. A juvenile Regal Angel in a acclimation box also appears to have some dis-coloration behind the gills but I'm not sure if that is new. (photos attached)

This feels like I'm just waiting for more mortalities at this point. Any thoughts on whether this could be the result of exposure to high levels of copper (although it's strange the shrimp survived but the fish didn't) or do I have an unrelated disease/parasite?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Oh that's is rough... How long do you think the copper has been in the systems?

Although exposure to copper is not Good for the health of fish as it's kind of toxic, I don't see exposure of those levels killing fish but sparing inverts. They are highly copper sensitive.

Can you FW dip the FF without too much stress to check for flukes?

 

[KrisReef]

How long has this tank been running?
When did you add the fish?

They look ok externally, imo.

 

[Sharkbait19]

#fishmedic

The copper used in medications is not toxic, as it is bound to specific chemicals to keep it that way. Free copper can be dangerous (why you don’t mix prime with copper). I’m not sure that is what your problem here is, but it is possible. With all that said, inverts should die first with copper.
Given that the fish die with an open mouth, it is possible there is an oxygen issue in the tank.

 

[vetteguy53081]

There is a good chance yes and from wash machine may have been leftover petroleum traces from any soaps.
I wash in my machine after a rinse cycle in warm water only - No bleach- Nothing. Traces of copper on your test kit I trust suggest indeed copper is present.
I would do a 25% water change and add ChemiPure Blue or Lab Grade carbon and test again in 24 hours.

 

[threebuoys]

I also doubt copper had anything to do with the fish deaths since your invertebrates have not been affected. However, other chemicals in the detergent, softeners, etc in the wash may be the culprit.

 

[Twosixpax]

Oh that's is rough... How long do you think the copper has been in the systems?

Although exposure to copper is not Good for the health of fish as it's kind of toxic, I don't see exposure of those levels killing fish but sparing inverts. They are highly copper sensitive.

Can you FW dip the FF without too much stress to check for flukes?

Thanks B

Agree it's strange the shrimp are fine (although the corals are not - all showing signs of stress and have a couple that have bleached).

Catching the foxface would be an adventure with 200+ lbs of live rock in there..

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Thanks B

Agree it's strange the shrimp are fine (although the corals are not - all showing signs of stress and have a couple that have bleached).

Catching the foxface would be an adventure with 200+ lbs of live rock in there..

Again, sorry for the losses.

In that case, a decent water change and Lots of fresh carbon on both systems may be the best way forward.

 

[Twosixpax]

How long has this tank been running?
When did you add the fish?

They look ok externally, imo.

Thx Kris.

Tank has been running since September 2022 - most of the rock and a Gem Tang, and the coral/shrimp came from the tank it replaced - it was all transferred with the water and without a noticeable cycle (although I did use new sand).

The Gem has been in there for a year or more. 2 clowns and 4 Royal Gramma added in Jan 2023. The copperband and Foxface in Feb 2023. The Sleeper Gobies added March 2023 and the Starry Blenny April 2023

 

[Twosixpax]

#fishmedic

The copper used in medications is not toxic, as it is bound to specific chemicals to keep it that way. Free copper can be dangerous (why you don’t mix prime with copper). I’m not sure that is what your problem here is, but it is possible. With all that said, inverts should die first with copper.
Given that the fish die with an open mouth, it is possible there is an oxygen issue in the tank.

Thanks S.

One thing I forgot to mention is that the skimmer did quit working on the tank around the same time and phosphates have spiked pretty high - >2.5. I added a new skimmer today.

Aeration wise, there are two ReefWave 45s on the system running at 80-90%, and a Sicce 9000 in the sump running at 80%. That said, with the phosphate levels there is a lot of GHA in the tank right now. My ORP (for what it's worth, is showing as 247 - down from a usual level ov 290 - I assumed
due to the mortalities).

 

[Twosixpax]

There is a good chance yes and from wash machine may have been leftover petroleum traces from any soaps.
I wash in my machine after a rinse cycle in warm water only - No bleach- Nothing. Traces of copper on your test kit I trust suggest indeed copper is present.
I would do a 25% water change and add ChemiPure Blue or Lab Grade carbon and test again in 24 hours.

Thanks V. I jettisoned the socks and bought a ReefMat.

I did do 4 or 5 25G (c.10%) changes after I first detected copper. Only 25G as that's the biggets mixing bin I have, but I'll go buy 100G pre-mixed salt water from the LFS tomorrow anbd do a 130G+ change and add the ChemiPure.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks V. I jettisoned the socks and bought a ReefMat.

I did do 4 or 5 25G (c.10%) changes after I first detected copper. Only 25G as that's the biggets mixing bin I have, but I'll go buy 100G pre-mixed salt water from the LFS tomorrow anbd do a 130G+ change and add the ChemiPure.

there have been recent instances with issues with purchased water from LFS with elevated nitrate-salinity and phosphates. Not saying theirs is bad, but when you get home, test that water to assure this does not apply to your water you are paying for

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

there have been recent instances with issues with purchased water from LFS with elevated nitrate-salinity and phosphates. Not saying theirs is bad, but when you get home, test that water to assure this does not apply to your water you are paying for

I think it's extremely unlikely that hitchhiker nitrates/ phosphates or incorrect salinity would be killing fish.

The numbers would have to be so drastic for this to be the case or even Possible.

I personally don't think you could add enough nitrates/phosphates to a larger system with a 10% water change to get them to a lethal level.

The salinity would have to be so high in the water change water It may as well be pure salt at that point, diluting 10% into 90.

Just a thought.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I think it's extremely unlikely that hitchhiker nitrates/ phosphates or incorrect salinity would be killing fish.

The numbers would have to be so drastic for this to be the case or even Possible.

I personally don't think you could add enough nitrates/phosphates to a larger system with a 10% water change to get them to a lethal level.

The salinity would have to be so high in the water change water It may as well be pure salt at that point, diluting 10% into 90.

Just a thought.

That was Not what was said- he is purchasing water tomorrow and I have suggested he test that purchased water. For the volume he wants to change- would suck to have water with high nitrates or similar. We are getting a lot of cases of bad water being purchased and persons wondering why their numbers are high after a water change

 

[Jay Hemdal]

A couple of weeks ago I noticed some corals receeding in my tank (Reefer S1000 G2) and tested for copper using a Hanna High Range Checker. Readings varied from 0.15 to as high as 0.6. The other invertebrates (coral banded shrimp, fire shrimp, conch all seem ok at this point). I began using Poly-fiilter pads and Cuprisorb but there is a lot of rock and sand in the system and the readings fluctuated for several days. I calibrated the checker using the Hanna calibration set yesterday and it was very accurate. The system tested at 0.36.

A starry blenny I'd added from Diver's Den a couple of weeks before I detected the copper began occasionally flashing on the sand bed but otherwise looked healthy, then suddenly died a week ago (swimming and eating in the am, found dead in the pm). Today one of my pair of golden headed sleeper gobies also died. I saw him flashing on the sand once yesterday, was eating this morning, but found him dead this afternoon (photos attached but I see no obvious signs of disease). I also saw a Royal Gramma flashing against some hair algae on a rock a week or so ago, but has since stopped and seems fine.

The source of the copper seems to have been an accidental contamination from a scented cleaning agent used in a washing machine when I washed and added socks back into the system. My RODI and freshly mixed water both test negative for copper. I have two systems and both tested positive for copper after the socks were washed. There are no fish in the second system yet.

My small foxface seems to have a cloudy area behind his gills, but given their propensity to change color I'm not sure if it's an issue. A juvenile Regal Angel in a acclimation box also appears to have some dis-coloration behind the gills but I'm not sure if that is new. (photos attached)

This feels like I'm just waiting for more mortalities at this point. Any thoughts on whether this could be the result of exposure to high levels of copper (although it's strange the shrimp survived but the fish didn't) or do I have an unrelated disease/parasite?

Thanks in advance.

That sucks. However, there is no instance where copper contamination would kill fish before killing corals or snails...that just won't happen. Crustaceans are a bit sturdier when exposed to copper, but again, they would die before the fish.

I'm surprised that your corals all didn't die outright - copper above 0.10 is almost always 100% fatal to them.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

A couple of weeks ago I noticed some corals receeding in my tank (Reefer S1000 G2) and tested for copper using a Hanna High Range Checker. Readings varied from 0.15 to as high as 0.6. The other invertebrates (coral banded shrimp, fire shrimp, conch all seem ok at this point). I began using Poly-fiilter pads and Cuprisorb but there is a lot of rock and sand in the system and the readings fluctuated for several days. I calibrated the checker using the Hanna calibration set yesterday and it was very accurate. The system tested at 0.36.

A starry blenny I'd added from Diver's Den a couple of weeks before I detected the copper began occasionally flashing on the sand bed but otherwise looked healthy, then suddenly died a week ago (swimming and eating in the am, found dead in the pm). Today one of my pair of golden headed sleeper gobies also died. I saw him flashing on the sand once yesterday, was eating this morning, but found him dead this afternoon (photos attached but I see no obvious signs of disease). I also saw a Royal Gramma flashing against some hair algae on a rock a week or so ago, but has since stopped and seems fine.

The source of the copper seems to have been an accidental contamination from a scented cleaning agent used in a washing machine when I washed and added socks back into the system. My RODI and freshly mixed water both test negative for copper. I have two systems and both tested positive for copper after the socks were washed. There are no fish in the second system yet.

My small foxface seems to have a cloudy area behind his gills, but given their propensity to change color I'm not sure if it's an issue. A juvenile Regal Angel in a acclimation box also appears to have some dis-coloration behind the gills but I'm not sure if that is new. (photos attached)

This feels like I'm just waiting for more mortalities at this point. Any thoughts on whether this could be the result of exposure to high levels of copper (although it's strange the shrimp survived but the fish didn't) or do I have an unrelated disease/parasite?

Thanks in advance.

Can you post short videos of the affected fish? I'd like to see their overall demeanor and respiration rates....

Jay

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

That was Not what was said- he is purchasing water tomorrow and I have suggested he test that purchased water. For the volume he wants to change- would suck to have water with high nitrates or similar. We are getting a lot of cases of bad water being purchased and persons wondering why their numbers are high after a water change

That would suck.

 

[Twosixpax]

there have been recent instances with issues with purchased water from LFS with elevated nitrate-salinity and phosphates. Not saying theirs is bad, but when you get home, test that water to assure this does not apply to your water you are paying for

Good call - will do.

 

[Twosixpax]

Can you post short videos of the affected fish? I'd like to see their overall demeanor and respiration rates....

Jay

Here you go Jay.

Ironically, one of the Grammas started scratching as soon as I got the camera out.

Other than the advice here, I did learn something new - I run my lights 95% blues and the tank looks good. Turn on 100% whites it looks like a scene from Apocalypse Now!

Thanks for taking a look at these

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Here you go Jay.

Ironically, one of the Grammas started scratching as soon as I got the camera out.

Other than the advice here, I did learn something new - I run my lights 95% blues and the tank looks good. Turn on 100% whites it looks like a scene from Apocalypse Now!

Thanks for taking a look at these

Thanks, the videos help rule out some things....notably, the fish are swimming well and not breathing fast so that rules out Brooklynella or Velvet. No spots, so that rules out ich. that just leaves flukes are a possible disease entity. Trouble is, the possible contamination of the water adds another layer to all this.

If you want to pursue the fluke angle, you should get the copper issue under control and then you can dose the tank with prazipro - no UV or carbon, with good aeration. Dose once, then wait 8 days, change 25% of the water and dose a second time.

Jay