Could you not use kessils in every. single. build. Please?

[Ryanbrs]

If you guys setup 100 tanks at least 90 of them are gonna have kessil. I'm very glad you used a quality light for the growth project, and it really made me realize how much you use the same light over, and over, and over, and over, in almost every single build series.

It would be pretty nice to see you guys use a WIDE range of lighting. Not just kessil, not just radion, not just ATI. Use everything you have. It would have been VERY nice to see one of the ULM tanks grown with the Orphek fixture, or Giesemann Verve, or the ATI LED / Powermodule.

I think this is a fair request and I can understand the desire. There are a few elements to this.

1) Most of this comes from selecting the best available option for this specific install. That is normally after hours of debate with a half dozen members of the team. The Kessil or more specifically the Kessil/T5 hybrid gets selected a lot because it not only produces results but everyone here has seen almost every option in person and we all almost universally agree the kessil/t5 hybrid options look the best in a the tank. That's because putting all the LED's under a single lens eliminates the color separation and overwhelming disco or TV static effect.

2) I know people use the gear we talk about and recommend so we try and use options which produce the best results for us here so the people emulating us have success as well. In this case the kessils are just a lot easier to tune spectrum with and a lot harder produce insane PAR levels. They just didn't get lost in the marketing hype of PAR WARS like everyone else did.

3) As someone who not only provides information but also represents companies there is a tightrope I have to walk. The best way I have found to do that is to focus on a positive message of what works and produces results rather than discuss the failings of other gear. So sometimes it is as much about what we don't say or spend much time talking about as it is what we do talk about.

4) in the case of the experiments I need to use something I know will work so lighting is not a variable. I also need to use something economical because this whole thing costs so much. The donated Radions with diffusers fit that bill


For what it is worth. If I can't use T5's in a hybrid and have to go LED only. Radion xr15's with diffusers are my first choice. Best color, best spread, low profile and I like the softer look in the tank.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Just because I think a lot of people might find it interesting but totally unrelated to reefing. We get around 700k to a million views a month across all 700 videos. The income we receive from the ads on youtube is .... Drumroll, please ..... $1,500 a month [emoji4]
Helps pay a portion of the 5 person team here at BRSTV but a pretty small amount considering how many views it is.

This answer is obvious of course, read synopses of all “Tanked” episodes and start inviting celebrity guest hosts. [emoji23]

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

Again -- Me not being a kessil fan is besides the point. I would be unhappy if they only used Radions too, or T5, etc etc. But every series seems to start with one fundament cornerstone; They slap Kessils on it. As a viewer, reefkeeper, and someone whose very interested in lighting -- This is a faux pas, and becoming quite inexcusable.

Completely disagree. I don't think you're fairly assessing your own bias. It's not inexcusable that a private company do what's in their best interest and market in a way that they see fit. They have no obligation to me, you, or any other members on here to exhaustively test every light or to maintain an equal and fair usage of all major aquarium lights available today. As long as they're not testing a lighting-related topic, I'm not sure the light they use matters so long as they grow corals, which Kessils do very well. The point of the BRS TV Investigates series is not to show off all available lighting technology. The point is to at least do some methodical and somewhat controlled testing to try to determine cause and effect in a reef tank. Using Kessils on every tank actually helps with this by reducing the available variables that could affect outcomes.

I encourage you to start your own YouTube series and pay for everything out of your own pocket if you think such a injustice has been done to the hobby. If YouTube revenue is as plentiful and easy to get as you imply, you should have no trouble covering your own expenses.

 

[Ryanbrs]

Let's not forget that's taxable income. So the actual net is much less than that $1,500. When you count the amount of hours it takes to produce and edit this stuff, as well as the cost of goods that BRS has to put into these episodes, there's no way they're making money on YouTube views.

This could become more in the future. As of right now though, it's not a lot. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with using Kessils exclusively in the BRS videos. If it keeps the videos coming, I'm all for it. If anything, using only Kessils might add a bit of control to the experiments in that they all have the same lighting.

I can assure you the youtube income is like a drop in the bucket I added it up earlier this year and between the 5 team members, space, production equipment, build out, testing equipment, reefing gear used, livestock, stuff we give away ... we were in excess of 700k a year producing these videos.

Honestly, there is no clear line for how this kind of thing gets budgeted or funded. We just feel like there is legit value in showing how the gear we sell is used, demonstrating results, exploring the fundamentals of reefing to increase success rates and making the hobby more fun by learning more about it. If we do that well it will pay off somewhere. Luckly because se I am an owner and my business partner also believes in this we just don't spend a lot of time worrying about it. Although with this new lab I think I am starting to push the limits of how far that can go

 

[Ryanbrs]

Based off history, as much as I know you love them, I don't know anybody whose kept a long term successful tank with kessils alone. They are the most regretted purchase I've ever personally seen among people I personally know. Those who do well with kessil typically have to supplement their lighting. I don't see that with T5, Radions, AI, or any other manufacturer. I'm hoping the Kessil X will fix this issue.

Walk into any major vendors shop, which I can do in my area, you will not find Kessils. Two Guys Coral didn't use them, CaliKid doesn't use them, Reef Raft USA doesn't use them, Reef Lounge doesn't use them, Aqua SD doesn't use them, Battle Corals doesn't use them... Their clout is born from them being used at trade shows, where they offer free lighting to vendors. Outside of coral shows, where again, they offer free lighting as a marketing tool, none of the professional growers really use them.

Additionally, I believe they chose the lights they did for the growth experiment because they are the best option. But even then, even if they used nothing but THE BEST light at all times, I would find issue with it. Even though I don't care for kessil, the problem isn't using the kessil -- It's using nothing BUT the kessil. It's not a good way to show off other brands. And I'd have a hard time believing other companies wouldn't want their products being used unless it's in an X vs Y grow out format. Then it could make a company look bad due to lacking performance.

How many people buy the Giesemann verve? I'd wager not many... I haven't seen one in a single build thread by chance. I've only seen two orphek build threads. I've not seen any of the ATI LED fixtures being used (Full ATI LED, not powermodule). This is a great chance to show off different fixtures. And I for one would like more data on different lighting sources.

I just want to clarify, very few tanks we do are Kessil only. I would say most are T5's supplemented with Kessils. You could consider that in reverse if you wanted to. Some lower light tanks we do are kessil only but they just look better in the tank than all the individual colors shooting around from LED options. In the case of the ULMs we shared that we actually wanted to use the xr15's with the diffuser because they finally solved the spectrum blending problem but the shadow overflow prevented us from using the mounting arm and we didn't want a set of hanging kits for each tank. The entire team agreed it was what they would do if it was in their office so it's what we went with.

I personally wouldn't select Kessil's "only" as my #1 on SPS tank either. Few reasons, fewer color options, cords to connect all of them and there aren't easy ways to mount the amount I would want to use. However, there are a variety of reasons why they are an awesome compliment to t5's on a display tank. I just have to say a better complement to T5's than anything else I have tried. On a SPS/LED only tank I would use a grid of diffused Radions.

I have to say I also wouldn't use them on a propagation or grow out facility either. In this environment, I am looking for the most economic return on par and how I would light a tank. I don't care at all about elements like disco or how the tank looks. Spread issues are also not a big deal because I can mount the lights 2 feet above the tank.

In the end, there is a best option for each application or install. We really do try our best to review everything and select what we think is best. I can tell you it would be a lot easier on us and more profitable to skip ever mentioning T5's again and just suggest a grid of Radions and orpheks. Right or wrong we are trying to do our best to offer what we see as the best solution the most people will be successful and happy with.

 

[Rakie]

@Ryanbrs thank you a ton for weighing in on this, we all greatly appreciate you taking the time, and we all understand there's a ton of factors at play!

I would also say YouTube doesn't like anybody discussing payments.

That said, being familiar with YouTube, that amount doesn't surprise me. It's the people with a million subscribers that get a few 100k views per day that are pulling 6 figures. Trust me when I say, I hope that can someday become you -- just imagine the silly things you could accomplish with a spare 80-90k budget for experiments!

I also wanted to say when I write I'm super blunt, and as someone who appreciates ALL your content, and only wants to see more of it, I definitely want to make it clear that I love the content you provide. And apologies if it sounded harsh (it always does, I need to write differently [emoji58]).

 

[Ryanbrs]

I also wanted to say when I write I'm super blunt, and as someone who appreciates ALL your content, and only wants to see more of it, I definitely want to make it clear that I love the content you provide. And apologies if it sounded harsh (it always does, I need to write differently [emoji58]).

Steel sharpens steel. People challenging what we do keeps us sharp and focused on what matters!

Huge fan of direct, focused and sometimes blunt conversation. In most cases I believe it's actually a function of mutual respect

 

[HB AL]

Based off history, as much as I know you love them, I don't know anybody whose kept a long term successful tank with kessils alone. They are the most regretted purchase I've ever personally seen among people I personally know.

I guess it depends on what they interpret as long term and successful, and how large the pool of people is that have problems keeping a successful tank with Kessil’s alone. For me having a big cluster of corals from softies to Acros, and after 2.5 years with Kessils alone, with a heavy fish biolaod, a simple sump, nothing automated they have done an extremely good job in my scenario. It’s always easy to blame the lights, there are many other things to consider in having a successful tank. Sure t5 and halogen would be better for certain corals but I have no complaints from my Kessil Led’s. Nothing personal here just giving you an example of a successful tank in my opinion using Kessil only.

 

[kevin.st]

When I read RyanBRS's posts, I read them in his voice.

Thank you for the responses, Ryan!

 

[Rakie]

I guess it depends on what they interpret as long term and successful, and how large the pool of people is that have problems keeping a successful tank with Kessil’s alone. For me having a big cluster of corals from softies to Acros, and after 2.5 years with Kessils alone, with a heavy fish biolaod, a simple sump, nothing automated they have done an extremely good job in my scenario. It’s always easy to blame the lights, there are many other things to consider in having a successful tank. Sure t5 and halogen would be better for certain corals but I have no complaints from my Kessil Led’s. Nothing personal here just giving you an example of a successful tank in my opinion using Kessil only.

This is a great example! Something I didn't touch on (but should have) is I think the amount of LED's people use is too few, and they expect too much from such a small point of source lighting. Slamming 5 Kessils on there? That's how it SHOULD be done. I see people often having issues with SPS and kessil because they believe a 4' tank will be fine with 2 kessil 360's.

This is absolutely what I consider doing it right. And it is unfortunately an outlier!

 

[SteadyC]

Steel sharpens steel. People challenging what we do keeps us sharp and focused on what matters!

Huge fan of direct, focused and sometimes blunt conversation. In most cases I believe it's actually a function of mutual respect

Huge props for this mature and focused answer. It’s easy to get unprofessional with tough questions, you handled this like a superstar.

Btw, they used ecotech on the elevated alkalinity and calcium faster growth series. Yes, donated equipment, but mixed it up from Kessil.

Funny how this one ended, 8/10 reef certainty that raising alk/calcium/mag will substantially increase coral growth, but don’t do this at home.

8/10?? Don’t do it?? Uhm, sure I’ll think about not buying that for certain stock that will double my money, while I’m growing coral at half the speed. Sure, sure I will.

 

[Amoo]

Good insight and conversation @Ryanbrs and thanks for the topic @Rakie still love you bro.

 

[Katrina71]

I may be hunted and burned at the stake for this...I don't like the way Kessil lights look. I still prefer a canopy. We are a divided house. My son loves that look. As far as Coral growth and color...I'd like to see some hybrid old school/LED combos.

 

[Rakie]

Btw, they used ecotech on the elevated alkalinity and calcium faster growth series. Yes, donated equipment, but mixed it up from Kessil.

That's the first thing I said, and the reason this came up. It dawned on me I couldn't remember the last time a build didn't have a kessil. As I also said, I'm not a huge kessil fan but that's besides the point. I would still want to see more variety no matter which particular light they used the majority of the time.

Trust me, if they used nothing but radions I'd be wondering why we aren't seeing some kessils.

We just want too much Ryan!

Good insight and conversation @Ryanbrs and thanks for the topic @Rakie still love you bro.

I'm glad it didn't turn into flaming like the 6500k lighting thread. It's amazing what people get up in arms about LOL

 

[vetteguy53081]

Its a matter of preference, affordability, coral growth, customer service and useful life. You get what you pay for. Go to the member tank section in forum and see some of the most beautiful reef works of art and Note what lights they use. Those same lights fall under Radion, Kessil, Reefbrite, Fluval and so forth.
Lights Play a very important role in sustainability of some very expensive and even rare coral and will be the choice of aquarist based on dependability and industry popularity. You have choices and We have choices. This applies to Hunting, fishing, boating and so forth.
Every person has preferences, favorites and desires. I happen to have a 14 Bulb T5 on top of my canopy and two 72" reefbrite XHO on front and back draped over 3 Radions, two Kessil AP 700 and 2 SB reef Extreme WiFis in the corners. Yes what a variety but also " WHAT A RESULT !! "

Its like me telling people why do you all drive GM or Ford cars? Can someone please drive a Toyota or Nissan ?

 

[SteadyC]

I'm glad it didn't turn into flaming like the 6500k lighting thread. It's amazing what people get up in arms about LOL

I still have that one marked to read.

 

[MnFish1]

But the initial discussion was why they use them on everything, and the response was because kessil gives them lights to use. Why open up inventory that you loose money on when a company is good enough to give you lights to use in your series.

Firstly - I love BRS - Secondly, I love experiments. That said - The light (or any other experiment) shouldn't be based on 'inventory' or 'cost'. IMHO (And I dont think any of us know why BRS chose Kessil lights - perhaps they think they ARE the best for the tanks they use (i.e. smaller). The answer should be 'We don't have funding to adequately study xxx because we're a profit making business'. I dont have an opinion on what light should or shouldn't be used.

EDIT - @Ryanbrs
addressed this ... Thanks.

 

[MnFish1]

Additionally, I believe they chose the lights they did for the growth experiment because they are the best option. But even then, even if they used nothing but THE BEST light at all times, I would find issue with it. Even though I don't care for kessil, the problem isn't using the kessil -- It's using nothing BUT the kessil. It's not a good way to show off other brands. And I'd have a hard time believing other companies wouldn't want their products being used unless it's in an X vs Y grow out format. Then it could make a company look bad due to lacking performance.

One problem is where do you draw the line. Do you have 10 BRS 160's with 10 different lights? Do you do the chaeto study with 40 tanks instead of 4 so you can use 10 different lights - to be certain that there is no difference? BTW - to do a 'study' @Rakie you are absolutely correct - If the BRS xxxx study is done under Kessill lights - the most that can be said about it is that under those lights with that wavelength the study results were what they were. You can't necessarily extrapolate those results to other lights (assuming lights were the most important variable - which of course is also unprovable)...

Thats how all studies are however.

 

[Bob Escher]

Based off history, as much as I know you love them, I don't know anybody whose kept a long term successful tank with kessils alone. They are the most regretted purchase I've ever personally seen among people I personally know. Those who do well with kessil typically have to supplement their lighting. I don't see that with T5, Radions, AI, or any other manufacturer. I'm hoping the Kessil X will fix this issue.

Walk into any major vendors shop, which I can do in my area, you will not find Kessils. Two Guys Coral didn't use them, CaliKid doesn't use them, Reef Raft USA doesn't use them, Reef Lounge doesn't use them, Aqua SD doesn't use them, Battle Corals doesn't use them... Their clout is born from them being used at trade shows, where they offer free lighting to vendors. Outside of coral shows, where again, they offer free lighting as a marketing tool, none of the professional growers really use them.

Additionally, I believe they chose the lights they did for the growth experiment because they are the best option. But even then, even if they used nothing but THE BEST light at all times, I would find issue with it. Even though I don't care for kessil, the problem isn't using the kessil -- It's using nothing BUT the kessil. It's not a good way to show off other brands. And I'd have a hard time believing other companies wouldn't want their products being used unless it's in an X vs Y grow out format. Then it could make a company look bad due to lacking performance.

How many people buy the Giesemann verve? I'd wager not many... I haven't seen one in a single build thread by chance. I've only seen two orphek build threads. I've not seen any of the ATI LED fixtures being used (Full ATI LED, not powermodule). This is a great chance to show off different fixtures. And I for one would like more data on different lighting sources.

All three of my LFS in that I go to in Milwaukee using Kessil in their Coral tanks along with other but mostly Kessils

 

[Amoo]

I'm glad it didn't turn into flaming like the 6500k lighting thread. It's amazing what people get up in arms about LOL

Ironically I'm decent friends with Dave Turner who Adam from Battlecorals has mentioned a few times. He was one of the early LED adopters and he did so with a ridiculous number of "Black Boxes" from every angle you could imagine. It really was kind of neat and made me realize a long time ago that shadowing is the main issue we have to overcome with LEDs.

I see myself stuck on the LED/T5 combo for a while from this point out due to the sheer cost of the number of Radions I feel I would need to do it right.