Cyano with decent nutrient levels.

[Subsea]

I don’t understand how excess phosphate can starve dinoglaletts. I do understand available phosphate allowing desirable algae to outcompete dinnoflagelletss.

Considering more than 2000 species of known dinoflagellets, generalizations don’t always work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinoflagellate#See_also
“Dinoflagellates are mostly marine plankton, but they are also common in freshwater habitats. Many dinoflagellates are photosynthetic, but a large fraction of these are in fact mixotrophic, combining photosynthesis with ingestion of prey (phagotrophy and myzocytosis)”

 

[alabella1]

Get some more flow going

 

[RobertK]

Wow what a cool fish! What is that?

 

[fish_collector]

I am not going to lie I have never been able to achieve less than .1p and 15-20n in a tank more than a year old.

Lol, I hear that a lot. In my 2 year old tank I have to add both to keep them from going to zero. There's not a huge amount of fish but they are fed a decent amount twice a day. I believe it's the background algae that is consuming the N and P, when I take out the frag racks and clean them along with the glass and overflow, the N and P will creep up a bit for a few weeks before settling back to nothing. I try to never clean everything in one sitting, it takes too long to rebalance it. I dose N and P 2-3 times a week usually which keeps it at about 10 and 0.1. I have ammonia mixed up but I don't add that very often at all, I see no difference with or without it. Maybe a good topic to discuss in my frag tank thread that no one reads

 

[Paul B]

Wow what a cool fish! What is that?

It is a Dwarf, red Waspfish. I have 3 of them.

 

[vlangel]

Lol, I hear that a lot. In my 2 year old tank I have to add both to keep them from going to zero. There's not a huge amount of fish but they are fed a decent amount twice a day. I believe it's the background algae that is consuming the N and P, when I take out the frag racks and clean them along with the glass and overflow, the N and P will creep up a bit for a few weeks before settling back to nothing. I try to never clean everything in one sitting, it takes too long to rebalance it. I dose N and P 2-3 times a week usually which keeps it at about 10 and 0.1. I have ammonia mixed up but I don't add that very often at all, I see no difference with or without it. Maybe a good topic to discuss in my frag tank thread that no one reads

When my ornamental macroalgae are flourishing, I experience the same with N and P not measurable. Its undoubtedly there but being consumed so quickly by the macros and soft coral that it doesn't show up in tests. That is generally when I rip through the tank and do a drastic pruning which lasts about 3 weeks til I am back to N and P being consumed again.

That is currently not the case in my new tank that I just transferred into a month and a half ago. The macroalgae are still settling in and are not growing a lot yet so I am in the position of needing to watch my nutrients.

 

[Australian_Reef]

No, that's not as high as I thought, I did think you're phosphate was 0.01 ppm, which is quite low.

As mentioned, it does look like Cyano; manual removal with your siphon, increase flow, and try to minimize any excess organics. The video I posted above may be of some help too.

Fair doos mate. No probs. Sorry I called you AI.

 

[Fish Fan]

Fair doos mate. No probs. Sorry I called you AI.

No worries

 

[Australian_Reef]

That’s EXACTLY what google AI would say

No worries

 

[Australian_Reef]

Just to be clear this time I am joking. Sorry @welshgazz. You didn’t cause no argument.

 

[Fish Fan]

That’s EXACTLY what google AI would say

 

[Australian_Reef]

I appreciate the apology but it really wasn’t necessary. But big hugs mate.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Maybe more competitive because of prey but that is arguable and most likely hobby observation, however all the literature I’m aware of suggests just the opposite. Po4 limits growth and starves dinoflagellate. In nitrogen limiting environments dinoflagellate have the ability to consume n2 capturing Cyanobacteria.

http://archimer.ifremer.fr/doc/00015/12641/9570.pdfhttps://www.mdpi.com/2076-2607/11/9/2216https://scholar.archive.org/work/mo...ww.int-res.com/articles/meps/225/m225p169.pdfhttps://www.int-res.com/articles/ame2010/59/a059p055.pdfhttps://www.academia.edu/download/4...om-forming_marine_phyt20160221-823-f4ug92.pdfhttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0025326X19300980

 

[CHSUB]

http://archimer.ifremer.fr/doc/00015/12641/9570.pdfhttps://www.mdpi.com/2076-2607/11/9/2216https://scholar.archive.org/work/mo...ww.int-res.com/articles/meps/225/m225p169.pdfhttps://www.int-res.com/articles/ame2010/59/a059p055.pdfhttps://www.academia.edu/download/4...om-forming_marine_phyt20160221-823-f4ug92.pdfhttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0025326X19300980

Great study…when I read this it completely support my position. The high nutrient levels in these studies are many, many times lower than hobby testing resolution levels. For example the nutrient rich environment quoted here are 5000% lower than many hobbyists “good” range.

“Hodgkin and Ho suggest that when dissolved N levels are greater than .1mg/L and dissolved P levels are greater than .02 mg/L, red tide occurrences are highly probable.”

This is about where my nutrients are in my aquarium, many quoting hobby myth would suggest raising nutrients to combat dinoflagellate which is exactly opposite the correct action according to the above quote.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Great study…when I read this it completely support my position. The high nutrient levels in these studies are many, many times lower than hobby testing resolution levels. For example the nutrient rich environment quoted here are 5000% lower than many hobbyists “good” range.

“Hodgkin and Ho suggest that when dissolved N levels are greater than .1mg/L and dissolved P levels are greater than .02 mg/L, red tide occurrences are highly probable.”

This is about where my nutrients are in my aquarium, many quoting hobby myth would suggest raising nutrients to combat dinoflagellate which is exactly opposite the correct action according to the above quote.

Glad you find it compelling. I do not.

When was the last time a hobbyist had a red tide? I have never once seen a picture of a tank turned red with suspended dinos.

NO ONE (at least not me) is saying that higher nutrients themselves directly deter dinos. The higher nutrients spur competitors that then outcompete the dinos. Why assume the open ocean with suspend plankton problems is even remotely similar to the benthic surfaces in a reef tank?

 

[CHSUB]

The higher nutrients spur competitors that then outcompete the dinos

One of my many reasons is here…the often quoted competitors that supposedly fail during low nutrient conditions are often also cited as prey.

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

I had both red and green cyano. It just takes patience. Get out as much as you can.

 

[CHSUB]

spur competitors that then outcompete the dinos

Also for your consideration…when speaking about competitors, I often see examples of “hair algae” taking over when dinos disappear. The hobbyist claims by raising nutrients this hair algae dominates the environment squeezing out dinos; often suggesting hair algae is easier to control than dinos. I would suggest that hair algae and other algae, for that matter, do just fine in low nutrients environments as evident by an area I can’t reach in my aquarium.

 

[RobertK]

@Hans-Werner @Randy Holmes-Farley

One of those studies that Hans-Werner provided demonstrated increased dinoflagellate growth in the presence higher dissolved CO2:

"Specific growth rates were accelerated by enriched CO2 in P-replete cultures, but not in P-limited treatments."

Not sure how the levels of dissolved CO2 in that study might relate to atmospheric CO2 levels in the home enviroment. Are ambient CO2 levels in the home a factor in dinoflagellate control in the home aquarium?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Great study…when I read this it completely support my position. The high nutrient levels in these studies are many, many times lower than hobby testing resolution levels. For example the nutrient rich environment quoted here are 5000% lower than many hobbyists “good” range.

“Hodgkin and Ho suggest that when dissolved N levels are greater than .1mg/L and dissolved P levels are greater than .02 mg/L, red tide occurrences are highly probable.”

This is about where my nutrients are in my aquarium, many quoting hobby myth would suggest raising nutrients to combat dinoflagellate which is exactly opposite the correct action according to the above quote.

Our aquariums and the sea are different in many ways and most articles can’t be applied to our little systems.
That said, I believe you are right as you say that low N and P alone are not the cause of dinoflagellates.

The actual cause of dinoflagellates will fairly difficult to discuss in this forum unfortunately.