Cycle for fast livestock addition

[ross0201]

Just to clarify, I'm mostly hoping to get someone else to quarantine for me! I imagine I'll end up doing it, but I'm other ways.

 

[W1ngz]

I'm a proponent of the LFS, quarantine and taking your time. No one holds the interests of your tank higher than you do. There is lots to learn, and mistakes to make. Spending 4-6 weeks between fish additions is a small price to pay when developing a long-term viable ecosystem. There's plenty of proponents of the insta-tank out there, but I think you'll find that these are experienced reefers and commercial establishments who've made their mistakes and understand the nuances.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Please accept this :

THERE IS NOTHING FAST WHEN IT COMES TO SALTWATER.

While some may have had success/Luck, it is generally an recipe for disaster. The slower you go, the more successful you will be. Patience and planning is key in this reef hobby.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Thanks! It's a 50 gallon cube, 20 gallon sump, 50 lb dry live rock, Reef octopus 150 skimmer. I plan to use a refugium with algae and pods. I will have an auto water change system so that will be easy to do.

Stocking I don't know exactly, I figure I'm at least a month out but I was thinking:

• 2 clowns (standard ones)
• Goby/shrimp pair
• Ferry or flasher wrasse, something with an easy temperament, colorful, active.
• I'd like an algae eater of some kind but the tank seems a little small for the usual recommendations.

If my list, I'd change to live rock, real ocean water,live sand, would be ready in 24hrs, many aquarium institutions do it this way. All else perfect.

This is only time to go quick, all else need to have a farmers mentally

 

[ross0201]

Please accept this :

THERE IS NOTHING FAST WHEN IT COMES TO SALTWATER.

While some may have had success/Luck, it is generally an recipe for disaster. The slower you go, the more successful you will be. Patience and planning is key in this reef hobby.

I understand what you're saying. Could you elaborate on what you think could/would go wrong? I'm happy to wait and build up bacteria with ammonia (artificial). Sorry, I'm just stubborn and I have to understand!

 

[ross0201]

If my list, I'd change to live rock, real ocean water,live sand, would be ready in 24hrs, many aquarium institutions do it this way. All else perfect.

This is only time to go quick, all else need to have a farmers mentally

That's a long drive for me to get real ocean water to Minnesota!

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

That's a long drive for me to get real ocean water to Minnesota!

Bummer, just remember dry rock needs to cycle 35+ days, could be less, but usually longer, especially to build up anaerobic bacteria.

 

[ross0201]

Bummer, just remember dry rock needs to cycle 35+ days, could be less, but usually longer, especially to build up anaerobic bacteria.

Yeah, I'll have a long cycle before fish.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I understand what you're saying. Could you elaborate on what you think could/would go wrong? I'm happy to wait and build up bacteria with ammonia (artificial). Sorry, I'm just stubborn and I have to understand!

You can get sudden bioloads from livestock anf feeding for which cannot keep up with.
You’ll find yourself testing tank and doing water changes frequently, fish and coral in distress and algae blooms due to high phosphates, nitrate levels elevated and a heap of discouragement

 

[Tamberav]

What about cycling a QT tank and setting that up....buying the fish you want....QT them then slowly add to DT spreading out additions a few weeks.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I would seed the QT tank for a couple of weeks then add a fish or two which will hit display tank in the future. You don’t want to stock QT tank as it will have minimal filtration to support a small group of fish.
Slow is painful but worth it

 

[ross0201]

You can get sudden bioloads from livestock anf feeding for which cannot keep up with.
You’ll find yourself testing tank and doing water changes frequently, fish and coral in distress and algae blooms due to high phosphates, nitrate levels elevated and a heap of discouragement

OK, thanks! I don't anticipate getting coral for a long time and I do have an auto water change setup. But I get what you're saying slow is better.

Out of curiosity, I clicked your 660 gallon thread. How does stocking work on this? Do you have an enormous QT setup? Or is it mostly coming from other tanks?

 

[W1ngz]

I can't speak to the plan for stocking a 660, but stocking in general is usually done carefully and deliberately. You can't add them all at once, as the ammonia produced needs to be matched by the bacteria of your bio filter in the rocks, sand and filtration. Too much too fast is akin to a 4 year old playing Jenga - it's gonna crash fast. This is true for any tank whether it is a quarantine or the display. Even with 2 fish in a 20 gallon, you have about 24 hours before ammonia starts to cause distress and I'd say 3 days before it's likely to fatally damage respiration.

Planning a stocking list over time is usually how it's done. Research the species you want, and plan the more territorial or aggressive species to go later. More docile fish need time to settle in so the bolder fish don't see them as 'invaders'. Last time I stocked, I was on a 40-45 day rotation for quarantine, introduction, and then buying a new fish or two to go back in the now free quarantine tank. New filter media gets pre-cycled in the sump of the display, so my bio filter is ready to go for the next round after I drain and clean the quarantine setup.

Test the bio-filter with some ammonia or a piece of table shrimp for several days, to be sure the ammonia is being processed before you buy the fish. Running home every day after work to do 10 gallon water changes for 3 weeks isn't any fun.

 

[ross0201]

I can't speak to the plan for stocking a 660, but stocking in general is usually done carefully and deliberately. You can't add them all at once, as the ammonia produced needs to be matched by the bacteria of your bio filter in the rocks, sand and filtration. Too much too fast is akin to a 4 year old playing Jenga - it's gonna crash fast. This is true for any tank whether it is a quarantine or the display. Even with 2 fish in a 20 gallon, you have about 24 hours before ammonia starts to cause distress and I'd say 3 days before it's likely to fatally damage respiration.

Planning a stocking list over time is usually how it's done. Research the species you want, and plan the more territorial or aggressive species to go later. More docile fish need time to settle in so the bolder fish don't see them as 'invaders'. Last time I stocked, I was on a 40-45 day rotation for quarantine, introduction, and then buying a new fish or two to go back in the now free quarantine tank. New filter media gets pre-cycled in the sump of the display, so my bio filter is ready to go for the next round after I drain and clean the quarantine setup.

Test the bio-filter with some ammonia or a piece of table shrimp for several days, to be sure the ammonia is being processed before you buy the fish. Running home every day after work to do 10 gallon water changes for 3 weeks isn't any fun.

So you're saying that using more ammonia than a normal cycle won't work to build up the bio filter? Because it's maybe less complex than what fish are actually excreting?

This is actually exactly what I started the thread for; what would be the problem with using ammonia to create an artificially large bio load? In my mind I should be able to see ammonia being reduced more quickly as I exercise the bacteria with ammonia.

 

[W1ngz]

So you're saying that using more ammonia than a normal cycle won't work to build up the bio filter? Because it's maybe less complex than what fish are actually excreting?

This is actually exactly what I started the thread for; what would be the problem with using ammonia to create an artificially large bio load? In my mind I should be able to see ammonia being reduced more quickly as I exercise the bacteria with ammonia.

In theory it could work, if you can balance it. But how much ammonia is your stock, and food, going to produce and over how much time? I really don't think anyone can answer that since it depends on feeding, species, and size.

Too much ammonia at once to my knowledge, stalls the cycle.
How much ammonia do you need to use to produce a viable biofilter, to allow you to suddenly dump in all your fish?
Let's randomly say you need 5ppm of ammonia. Over how much time does that 5ppm need to be processed? 3 hours? 6? 24?
Your ammonia dosing and testing would have to be done 4-6 times a day to smooth out the curve and track it.

If you can't balance it and it gets out of hand, you end up with hundreds of dollars in fish at risk, suffering animals, and no viable environment to keep them.

 

[ross0201]

In theory it could work, if you can balance it. But how much ammonia is your stock, and food, going to produce and over how much time? I really don't think anyone can answer that since it depends on feeding, species, and size.

Too much ammonia at once to my knowledge, stalls the cycle.
How much ammonia do you need to use to produce a viable biofilter, to allow you to suddenly dump in all your fish?
Let's randomly say you need 5ppm of ammonia. Over how much time does that 5ppm need to be processed? 3 hours? 6? 24?
Your ammonia dosing and testing would have to be done 4-6 times a day to smooth out the curve and track it.

If you can't balance it and it gets out of hand, you end up with hundreds of dollars in fish at risk, suffering animals, and no viable environment to keep them.

I've read of people doing around 4ppm ammonia. My idea was just to add it more often. So typical recommendation is to make sure your tank can digest 2ppm overnight for 1-2 fish. If I can do 4 ppm in 4-8 hours that sort of makes sense to me. Really light feeding at first.

Testing will be annoying but kind of interesting. If someone made a continuous tester/logger it would be a really cool experiment.

 

[W1ngz]

I've read of people doing around 4ppm ammonia. My idea was just to add it more often. So typical recommendation is to make sure your tank can digest 2ppm overnight for 1-2 fish. If I can do 4 ppm in 4-8 hours that sort of makes sense to me. Really light feeding at first.

Testing will be annoying but kind of interesting. If someone made a continuous tester/logger it would be a really cool experiment.

4ppm is the usual dose for establishing a biofilter in a regular cycle. My question is, how much ammonia will your fish and food produce in a 24 hour period? You need to know that in order to know how much to dose, in order to balance the whole thing.

Seneye Reef does continuous ammonia monitoring.
After day 2, having to test ammonia manually multiple times a day will not in any way be interesting.

Monitoring notwithstanding, my overall assessment of the idea is that while possible, it's extremely unwise to proceed this way.
You can't wilfully force nature to hurry along and create an ecosystem just to satisfy impatience.

 

[vetteguy53081]

OK, thanks! I don't anticipate getting coral for a long time and I do have an auto water change setup. But I get what you're saying slow is better.

Out of curiosity, I clicked your 660 gallon thread. How does stocking work on this? Do you have an enormous QT setup? Or is it mostly coming from other tanks?

this is more of a transfer but over time- not putting everything from one tank to another al at once. With the larger volume, any water quality issues are more forgiving due to the large water volume.

 

[ross0201]

4ppm is the usual dose for establishing a biofilter in a regular cycle. My question is, how much ammonia will your fish and food produce in a 24 hour period? You need to know that in order to know how much to dose, in order to balance the whole thing.

Seneye Reef does continuous ammonia monitoring.
After day 2, having to test ammonia manually multiple times a day will not in any way be interesting.

Monitoring notwithstanding, my overall assessment of the idea is that while possible, it's extremely unwise to proceed this way.
You can't wilfully force nature to hurry along and create an ecosystem just to satisfy impatience.

I've read a pretty wide variety of ideas on what the initial ammonia dose should be. The info I read ranged from 1-4ppm, and seemed to average at 2; but I think it's just people using their experience as a guide rather than a set-in-stone number. Several sources report 5ppm as where you can hit a stall; so 4ppm should be safe.

We never know exactly how much ammonia our fish will produce, certainly it depends on the fish. My thinking was if 2ppm to 0ppm in 24 hours is good for 1 fish -> 2ppm to 0ppm in 4 hours would be 6 (more than I plan to stock but the math works easy) and 2ppm to 0ppm in 4 hours = 4ppm to 0ppm in 8 hours. I'm just cross multiplying.

I know you don't agree with this idea but I do appreciate the discussion.

Seneye looks cool thanks for the tip. I wish I could rent one...

 

[ross0201]

this is more of a transfer but over time- not putting everything from one tank to another al at once. With the larger volume, any water quality issues are more forgiving due to the large water volume.

Yup, not trying to compare our setups, I would just be interested in what all goes on in the background of a big tank like this. I've never had anything bigger than a 4'!