Cycle not lowering ammonia levels.

[vetteguy53081]

Looking for advice on lowering ammonia in my 30 Gal tank with one Clownfish. Two months ago I tried a fishless cycle with live rock. All my levels were low, ammonia was at zero and nitrate levels were there, but not high. I thought it was cycled and added the clownfish. A month later ammonia spiked to toxic levels and I was told to use Dr. Tim's continue the cycle that was never completed and it was causing the spiked ammonia. I shut off all the filters and let it sit for 48 hours. The ammonia hasn't lowered at all and nitrate levels seem to be really low as if the bacteria is low.

Assure youre not getting false readings.
What test kits are you using ?
What filters are you utilizing?

 

[Wuffletoast]

nice, that's a common dry rock cycle where all the uglies will come and go

we know you're cycled because you have been able to feed the tank over sixty times and it not crash

can u do one more pic, standing back further to show the whole layout.


*isn't it cool that updated cycling science just stopped your purchases, any fear at all about your cycle, any re-testing, we don't need you to test for ammonia or nitrite ever again on this tank. I don't own those kits, yet I cycle a thousand reef tanks a year online/results avail for the clicking.


fish disease prevention, that's where we're at.

there is no more concern nor questions to assess about your cycle, we're done cycling, it's why your fish are alive currently.

the reason I don't need any details / just pics/ is because we know you can't reef with fish and feed them sixty times in an uncycled tank. you never got one iota of doubt from updated cycling science; there isn't anything to verify.


since you're in a reef forum we knew you stacked a few rocks in center tank flow; that's all it takes to handle ammonia just fine as you're doing.

depending on discovery questions in the cycle breakdown implies there are examples of a two-month broken cycle after carrying fish + feeding, there aren't any.

have you read Jay's disease forum for quarantine and fallowing/ very very required in dry rock startups once you get beyond two clowns as the fish.

Just added the picture. The small rock covering the bottom is getting replaced with sand next week or so, I just wanted to solve the ammonia first and ask how I can replace safely when the time comes.

 

[brandon429]

here is your exact breakdown status

you must choose which version of cycling you want to rule your reef, old vs new

I will speak only on the new options since I have about three thousand cycle examples handy as links for that branch lol


-you were done cycling on day 1-3 even if your test kits didn't agree, they have a slow lag report time compared to digital measures. anything a non digital test kit reads for any param has zero status impact on your filter bacteria.

if nitrate is zero, you're as cycled as if it read 100 ppm.

I realize this sounds unbelievable; it's only slightly less unbelievable-sounding than the cacophony that resulted from trying to tell large reef tank owners that pico reefs were possible in 2001; getting laughed out of town is an understatement


how many pico reefs are on the planet now

*you need to research fish disease, fallow and quarantine rules for stocking reef tanks without disease, that's your sole concern. I recommend never test for ammonia or nitrite again as long as this tank runs, and if you want to test nitrate, buy a $ digital nitrate tester.

 

[brandon429]

You don't need any more rocks, I have pictures of $2000 nano reefs being built with that much rock carrying six fish.


don't doubt your cycle in any way, shape or form.

fish disease, something you can't test for but can only prep for with reading and study in Jay's forum, is the sole upcoming challenge for this reef tank. all disease preps have been skipped so far- the reef is due to be stocked up soon and if no quarantine continues we can see in Jay's forum how that fares by month eight.

 

[brandon429]

it is so, so vitally important for cycle umps in this hobby to remember they have never seen one example of a nonfunctioning reef tank cycle unable to carry fish, they've only seen completed and working cycles carrying live fish in their entire tenure as a display reef aquarist/that's why when I watch troubleshoots unfold for pages I'm thinking: as if?

 

[Wuffletoast]

Lots to digest... Two months ago you started a new tank with a Fluval skimmer and an Aqueon hang on the back filter... added two pieces of live rock (of unknown size and source, and we don't know if there is any other substrate)... all was well... a month later ammonia spiked (we don't know the actual extent of the spike and a fish and a shrimp had been added at some point)... you changed about 12 gallons of water, added Dr. Tim's, and turned off your filtration... at some point, something you believe to be Dinos started... We don't know if the filters have been turned back on or if what you think is Dinos are still a problem.

So, fill in the blanks:
The live rock I added weighed _________ lbs.
I got the live rock from __________.
The other substrate in the tank consists of _________________.
The ammonia spiked to about ___________ ppm.
The ammonia level today is__________ ppm.

You should turn your filters back on. How does the Clownfish look? I looked at your picture. That is Diatoms not Dinos. Absolutely expected in a new tank. It will pass. Those rocks in the picture are not the live rock are they?

No, those are not the live rock. The skimmer was turned back on after the bottle recommended 48 hours. The sock for the aqueon was added back at the same time. (Apologies for saying that one was turned off completely)I have added a photo for reference. The two colored rocks on each end are the live rock. I don't know the weight of them, but they were purchased from Petco. We don't have any other stores nearby to get them. The base is substrate rock that I will be changing out with the coral sand once the ammonia issue is resolved. I was going to ask for the best method to do so when the time came. The ammonia spiked to 2.4 mg/l. I don't know what that is in PPM. Now my test kit is reading as 3.7 mg/l.

 

[Wuffletoast]

Most likely just new tank diatoms which is normal once the lights come on. They typically go away on their own in a few weeks once the silicate in rocks and sand is used up.

Okay, so I'm fully cycled and the diatoms will go away naturally. Should I go back to water changes in order to lower the ammonia? Possibly use a different test kit? I don't have enough money right now for a digital tester.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Okay, so I'm fully cycled and the diatoms will go away naturally. Should I go back to water changes in order to lower the ammonia? Possibly use a different test kit? I don't have enough money right now for a digital tester.

If you still have ammonia, you are not fully cycled.

 

[Wuffletoast]

If you still have ammonia, you are not fully cycled.

I'm getting conflicting things here. Ammonia was at zero when I added the fish. People are saying algae can't grow unless cycled, but I have diatoms.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I looked up your ammonia test kit. It tests total ammonia. Ammonia exists in two states in high pH environments like a saltwater tank. One is toxic, one is not. Since your test kit does not disseminate between them, some calculations have to be made. So, if your tank tests @ 2.4 mg/l (same as ppm) of total ammonia the toxic portion on the total ammonia is .13 mg/l at a pH of 8.0... 3.7 mg/l of total ammonia equates to .2 mg/l of the toxic state. Both are safe levels. Your tank is probably cycled. Try a different kit if unsure. Salifert works and test only for the toxic form.

 

[Wuffletoast]

I looked up your ammonia test kit. It tests total ammonia. Ammonia exists in two states in high pH environments like a saltwater tank. One is toxic, one is not. Since your test kit does not disseminate between them, some calculations have to be made. So, if your tank tests @ 2.4 mg/l (same as ppm) of total ammonia the toxic portion on the total ammonia is .13 mg/l at a pH of 8.0... 3.7 mg/l of total ammonia equates to .2 mg/l of the toxic state. Both are safe levels. Your tank is probably cycled. Try a different kit if unsure. Salifert works and test only for the toxic form.

I will get that one right away. Thank you so much. I was worried I've been fighting this unbeatable toxic level for weeks while its had life in it.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I looked up your ammonia test kit. It tests total ammonia. Ammonia exists in two states in high pH environments like a saltwater tank. One is toxic, one is not. Since your test kit does not disseminate between them, some calculations have to be made. So, if your tank tests @ 2.4 mg/l (same as ppm) of total ammonia the toxic portion on the total ammonia is .13 mg/l at a pH of 8.0... 3.7 mg/l of total ammonia equates to .2 mg/l of the toxic state. Both are safe levels. Your tank is probably cycled. Try a different kit if unsure. Salifert works and test only for the toxic form.

Good info. I didn't realize the OP's test measured total ammo.

 

[Spare time]

You can't grow algae unless the tank is cycled. Not sure why you turned off filtration in the first place. You want bacteria in your filtration flow.

That is not true. Algae can use ammonia with not issue (and I presume nitrite).

 

[ReefGeezer]

I will get that one right away. Thank you so much. I was worried I've been fighting this unbeatable toxic level for weeks while its had life in it.

You are welcome. Sorry it took so long to drill down to the answer.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I'm getting conflicting things here. Ammonia was at zero when I added the fish. People are saying algae can't grow unless cycled, but I have diatoms.

Seemingly conflicting information is a way of life when dealing with hobby forums. Most people, including me, are just trying to help the best they can. Part of the learning curve is learning how to judge the information you are given. It just takes time.

 

[Lavey29]

Good info. I didn't realize the OP's test measured total ammo.

Glad you learned something today

 

[Lavey29]

That is not true. Algae can use ammonia with not issue (and I presume nitrite).

If there are enough nitrates to support algae growth then how can your tank not be cycling?

@Brandon249 just discussed this in detail in another cycling thread.

Algae, unlike plants, cannot store essential nutrients. For growth, algae require nutrients to be present in the surrounding environment. The needed nutrients are nitrogen nitrate (N), phosphate (P), and potassium (K).

 

[Lavey29]

If you still have ammonia, you are not fully cycled.

Have you heard of a faulty test or margin of error from cheap test kits? If he is producing nitrates he is cycled. Pretty easy methodology.

 

[ReefGeezer]

If there are enough nitrates to support algae growth then how can your tank not be cycling?

@Brandon249 just discussed this in detail on page 1

Algae, unlike plants, cannot store essential nutrients. For growth, algae require nutrients to be present in the surrounding environment. The needed nutrients are nitrogen nitrate (N), phosphate (P), and potassium (K).

I was under the impression that algae would prefer to get its nitrogen from ammonia as some additional energy consuming processes are required to use nitrate. Nitrate is used when not enough nitrogen can be obtained from ammonia. That would, in theory anyway, mean that algae could form in an uncycled tank. I would guess that it probably doesn't due to phosphate limitation. I will agree that tanks with positive nitrate test readings are probably cycled, but ammonia could still be present.

In this case, where ammonia tests show positive ammonia, it seems inappropriate to rely on assumptions rather than trying to find out why the elevated ammonia levels and indications that the tank had probably cycled existed.

 

[Rob Biederman]

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