Cycle stalled

[brandon429]

lets see what it does tomorrow, that's very clear above good deal. its fun to race cycles btw lol/ 5 weeks/ aquarium forum humor
you have been patient compared to most.

the best approach is a full water change to drive your reading to calibrated zero, meaning our first picture is what your test reads in a tank we know for a fact has no free ammonia.

causing that much of a color shift on file, then slightly up for the other shot, is how we can use those tests differently to show a clear cycle.

waiting for a potentially full on read above to go down is how the tests are normally used, its how cycles get stuck based on testing issues. no clear range shown, all green shots.

remember at any point you can begin actual reefing. this wrestling here is what we do when you want a non digital ammonia tester to allow the start.

I would bet 150 pages of cycle thread work your tank will handle what you throw at it

have a plan for fish disease. even as I type that most wont adhere but we lose about 60-80% of reef fish by buying the best specimens at the lfs or online, then inputting them into a tank that hasn't set up a fish disease prevention approach.

you are long past cycling, and into disease control but only if you want to put down the tester and roll based on submersion times that cycle charts show.

 

[Joeg]

Sounds good, we'll see what tomorrow brings.

As far as livestock I'm only planning on bringing over my 2 clowns from an existing tank and lopping off a few shrooms. The other tank (20g cube softies) was looking really good until this past spring. I'd not added anything to the tank in well over 8 months and then one morning I saw a blue/black starfish the size of a dime from leg tip to leg tip dead on the sand. I'd never seen him before which was odd. I scooped him out and the tank went into free fall by that evening. Softies melting everywhere, snails, shrimp, etc. All I can imagine is that the little starfish was toxic to the tank when it died because parameters before that morning were great. I've never seen a tank crash so fast but I was able to save the clowns. I dip and quarantine everything so that little guy somehow made it in and survived a dip. I've had many reef tanks over the years and seeing what happened to that one left me feeling like I should just get out, but instead I went bigger

Anyway, for the moment I'm only planning to bring the clowns over and then shut the other tank down. My original plan was to try SPS and I still may since I certainly can generate enough flow but I may just do a softie/LPS tank.

 

[brandon429]

this tank is disease free for fish vectored disease anyway, benefits of the dry rock start. we are all assuming wet pack caribsea sand isn't a crypto risk, nobody's really verified that but the going assumption is bagged sand is disease free.

 

[ScubaFish802]

If you're at 50+ on nitrates you should be cycled.

I'd hit it with a water change and retest Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates with good test kits.

Agreed^, big water change + re-test and you should be good to go.

 

[Joeg]

No sand in this one but every day I think it should have sand.

 

[Joeg]

This is over 72 hours after dosing. I'm not really seeing any movement of the ammonia. Not sure what to do but keep in mind I did a 50% water change before dosing ammonia.

 

[brandon429]

Good job on documentation clarity

welcome to non seneye ammonia testing
nitrate indicates pinkest possible activity as well

 

[Joeg]

So, this may be an odd question. Since I'm in no hurry to move my clowns over should I just wait this out until the ammonia starts to show a visible drop and put some chaeto under the sump light? Essentially wondering if a bit more waiting will save the cost of some salt mix.

 

[brandon429]

Yes for sure wait, we can track the start allowance with awesome picture sets. We want to track how long old school cycling rules take to permit a start vs 2020 cycling rules.

per old school rules, that system can’t start till nitrite photographs as zero off that sample and ammonia has to be hard zero before you can start, can u include a current nitrite reading it will help show the big picture between a cycling chart and the concept of a stalled reef cycle. We’ve missed a critical start date per old school rules, now we see how far beyond the start date we wait for 3x param compliance per usual rules. Nice to have clear pics on the process

 

[Joeg]

Sounds good, I'll re-test in a couple of days and update with the 3 readings again. I was hoping to score some chaeto for next week but it looks like Algae Barn among other sellers don't have any in stock but some will pop up eventually.

 

[Shirak]

What about an ammonia alert badge from seachem? Petco has them and I think they are pretty accurate. That would give you a clear indication of any ammonia in the system. Would also help keep an eye on things once you add a few fish to make sure ammonia isn't building up.

 

[brandon429]

Nice call. That would make at least a comparison possible between reads and it’s not costly

 

[Joeg]

Thanks for the suggestion @Shirak

Unfortunately nobody around me seems to stock just the ammonia kit, but It looks like one store does have the combo pack in stock so I may swing by and pick it up today.

 

[schuby]

If you're using quality test kits and your ammonia isn't going to zero, then I second the recommendation to use Dr Tim's One and Only to seed the nitrifying bacteria. Someone mentioned NoPox. Have you dosed anything other than more ammonia?

@Randy Holmes-Farley has stated many times that you can't test for Nitrate (false positive: test doesn't work yet) until your Nitrite is close to zero. Ignore Nitrate until Ammonia goes to zero and Nitrite is zero or nearly zero.

 

[Joeg]

This is after being in the tank for 24hrs

 

[brandon429]

Take these two pics:

that reader inside the tank after it sits for about fifteen minutes back in water, it stays in. Doesn’t get removed for reading.


and then one of Red Sea taken now so we can compare distribution reading between the two

also factoring here: the thousands of posts about why my reef has free ammonia...this problem isnt rare for the hobby it’s common, for these types of test kits

but having persistent ammonia isn’t common, only the test kits stating so and not agreeing with one another.

 

[Joeg]

 

[brandon429]

now we get to flip a coin since two testers disagree

heads is five weeks and the times shown on a cycling chart and seachem badge


other side is red sea. Seems easy, do a search to see if Red Sea ever shows free ammonia when there isn’t any. If it does, go with heads. Change water, most of it for new, and begin reefing.

if Red Sea doesn’t have many entries online of + ammonia in running reefs with fish, open coral, clear water (free ammonia kills reefs the fish can’t swim, corals can’t open) then wait until Red Sea permits the start, into the second month.

 

[Joeg]

Well, I'm in no hurry and waiting to see what happens may be interesting so I'm going to sit tight for now. I'll update with new test results periodically. Thanks again to everyone for the input.

 

[Lasse]

You can´t compare Red Seas ammonia test and Seachems ammonia alert directly. They measure different things. Red Seas measure both the toxic part NH3 and the non toxic part NH4. In the US call all this for ammonia, in UK you differ between ammoniac and ammonium. NH3 (ammoniac or ammonia gas) - NH4 (ammonium or ammonia ions) Seachem only measure the toxic part NH3. How much of the pair NH3/NH4 that will be in the toxic NH3 form is depended of pH, temperature and salinity (altitude can play a role to but a minor). If you have a system that vary in pH - total ammonia measurement could be a better tool if you measure your pH. Here is a tool that can help you calculate how much toxic ammonia gas you have at a given total ammonia concentration, pH and temperature.

The PH has been between 7.9 and 8.2 d

Now I read your total ammonia test to 2 ppm and the tool answer that at pH 8, 25 degree C and salinity between 23 - 27 PSU - the toxic part is around 0.09 ppm NH3. Your Ammonia alert report around 0.05 as toxic NH3. In fact - they show the same - IMO. If your pH will rise now - let us say to 8.4 - your badge will report above 0.2 and alarm.

Please read this thread for the understanding of the nitrite - nitrate relationship in our measurements of them.

So here is the deal. The reef mature kit is strange. The starter adds ammonia AND nitrate. Then they want you to dose their carbon. In essence allowing the heterotrophs to rob ammonia from the autotrophs. Very poor design in my opinion.

So OP change as much water as possible and don't add the nopox this time.

That´s my opinion too. IMO - when start of a new nitrification cycle all things that favour heterotrophic bacteria should be avoided and also adding of these. When the nitrification cycle is completed - including the step nitrite to nitrate now it could be time to introduce them if needed. IMO - it is especially important in bare bottom system because lack of enough surface for both bacteria groups in the start.

What would I do in the present situation?

First a 30 - 50 % WC. Stop all addining of ammonia, organic carbon and heterotrophic bacteria. Get an internal foam filter with a very high flow and place it in the sump. Add some nitrifying bacteria every day for three weeks or until you read very low concentrations. There are many special bacterial strains available to buy, including a mixture of nitrification and break-down bacteria--avoid them in the beginning--only the nitrifying bacteria are of interest. The already mentioned product from Doctor Tim works good. Do you have an old aquarium running? Then take and turn out the filter or sludge from the sand in a few liters of water--fresh or salt aquarium --does not matter. Put it in the refrigerator, and then pour in an appropriate amount every day into your new aquarium. At the start of an aquarium it can be a good method to use an internal foam filter, which helps the nitrification to start. It can later be removed if you want.

Measure ONLY the nitrite - when it has gone from present 1 ppm to below 0.05 mg/L - your safe IMO. I do not like to use the total ammonia tests because when total ammonia is around zero - they often report 0.2 and the nitrate test will be false if there is nitrite in the water. In this case I would not recommend any adding of livestock - if the pH rise - it could be ugly. Both the ammonia alert and your total ammonia readings indicate that there could be toxic levels of NH3 in the water

Sincerely Lasse