Cycle stalled
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My order of Dr' Tim's arrived so last night I changed out approx 50g of the total 70g volume. The look of the bare bottom finally got to me so I also added approx 1.5 - 2 inches of sand (a mix of CaribSea Arag Alive sizes) before replacing the water and let everything settle overnight.
This morning I did a fresh set of tests and these were the results which I found a bit surprising considering the amount of water swapped out:
Nitrite: 1+
Nitrate: 20+
Ammonia: .02 - .04
I was expecting the nitrate and nitrite to fall much lower after such a big water change.
So, today I'll be adding Dr. Tims and see where this goes.
I've had at least 20 reef tanks in my life so far and this is the only one that's had an odd cycle. I don't know whether to think it was the bare bottom or the Red Sea starter or maybe I just did something wrong but I'm looking forward to getting the cycle completed.
This morning I did a fresh set of tests and these were the results which I found a bit surprising considering the amount of water swapped out:
Nitrite: 1+
Nitrate: 20+
Ammonia: .02 - .04
I was expecting the nitrate and nitrite to fall much lower after such a big water change.
So, today I'll be adding Dr. Tims and see where this goes.
I've had at least 20 reef tanks in my life so far and this is the only one that's had an odd cycle. I don't know whether to think it was the bare bottom or the Red Sea starter or maybe I just did something wrong but I'm looking forward to getting the cycle completed.
Shirak
Valuable Member
Huh interesting. Makes me wonder if there is something with the test kit or the fresh mixed salt water. I haven't looked through the whole thread to see what you are using for salt and rodi water, but I would test a batch of freshly mixed salt water to see if there is something going on there.
Well, I was tired of looking at the Brute cans so I dumped the couple extra gallons of mixed salt water last night so I can't test that mix. I was originally using Tropic Marin Pro but last nights was a blend of Tropic Marin and some Instant Ocean because it was the only choice at the local store yesterday.
Aside from testing tds I've not tested the RO water but I guess it can't hurt.
Aside from testing tds I've not tested the RO water but I guess it can't hurt.
This thread is a very, very helpful snapshot of old school cycling vs new. The ability to sell bottle bac repeatedly to someone who is already cycled, double the timeframe from any cycling chart in books or online, is something I hope bottle bac sellers lose over time.
When seneye is used to call a cycle, cycles get complete. be sure and read up on red sea and perpetual ammonia registry, its impacting here. two thousand posts show .2-.4 in full running reefs, which cannot occur.
using TAN conversion still doesnt help, if people see color in the reading they buy more bottle bac.
I have a new reef goal to highlight the false bottle bac sales machine in action for our hobby. The way we do that is specifically collecting aquariums for post patterns that claim to be stalled, and indeed are not. We have a literal mountain of evidence in false stuck cycle analysis threads and its important to have both sides for reference: the tanks unstuck using new cycling science, running fish and doing fine, and the ones on the old science so we can chart expenditures, wait times, and outcomes in pattern.
*the reason to study stuck cycle science is because it affects our cash flow, ability to design compliant reef tanks, and it 100% affects our ability to make start dates reliably. Here are times we need exacting start dates in reefing: setting up emergency transfer tanks, making MACNA conventions if invited, where for 20 years no group of 500 reefs selling things to us had one single stall; maybe we want to do a full tank swap, or a sandbed removal, all of that is cycling science and makes for pure legit study. This is a great thread to have in the study
You mentioned having several reefs before, this one is working just like the others, but your tests will not let you see that. people who sell bottle bac relish this exact type of cycle.
seneye would save you a massive headache here.
When seneye is used to call a cycle, cycles get complete. be sure and read up on red sea and perpetual ammonia registry, its impacting here. two thousand posts show .2-.4 in full running reefs, which cannot occur.
using TAN conversion still doesnt help, if people see color in the reading they buy more bottle bac.
I have a new reef goal to highlight the false bottle bac sales machine in action for our hobby. The way we do that is specifically collecting aquariums for post patterns that claim to be stalled, and indeed are not. We have a literal mountain of evidence in false stuck cycle analysis threads and its important to have both sides for reference: the tanks unstuck using new cycling science, running fish and doing fine, and the ones on the old science so we can chart expenditures, wait times, and outcomes in pattern.
*the reason to study stuck cycle science is because it affects our cash flow, ability to design compliant reef tanks, and it 100% affects our ability to make start dates reliably. Here are times we need exacting start dates in reefing: setting up emergency transfer tanks, making MACNA conventions if invited, where for 20 years no group of 500 reefs selling things to us had one single stall; maybe we want to do a full tank swap, or a sandbed removal, all of that is cycling science and makes for pure legit study. This is a great thread to have in the study
You mentioned having several reefs before, this one is working just like the others, but your tests will not let you see that. people who sell bottle bac relish this exact type of cycle.
seneye would save you a massive headache here.
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Thanks @Shirak I was wondering that after I posted the comment. I am using RO/DI. The membrane is a little older but still shows 0 tds out. The sediment, charcoal, and DI canisters are all new within the last 100 gallons.
@brandon429 I've found this to be the most unusual cycle I've ever experienced. Every tank before this one was old school with patience but I have some trust in the RedSea brand from their other products so I thought I'd give their cycling system a shot. I wish I could say for sure what's caused this one to go sideways and do wish I had at least added sand from the start since I likely knew I was going to anyway and that would have at least removed one variable.
I think I'm mostly surprised by how the Nitrate and Nitrite readings didn't drop the same way the ammonia did. I do wonder if maybe the Arag Alive sand has something to do with that. I took the opportunity of having an almost empty tank as an ideal time to add the sand but it would have been interesting to have changed the water, tested, and then added the sand and tested again just to see if that had any impact. I didn't think of if because I was not expecting these readings and also didn't want to try and place the sand with the tank full.
@brandon429 I've found this to be the most unusual cycle I've ever experienced. Every tank before this one was old school with patience but I have some trust in the RedSea brand from their other products so I thought I'd give their cycling system a shot. I wish I could say for sure what's caused this one to go sideways and do wish I had at least added sand from the start since I likely knew I was going to anyway and that would have at least removed one variable.
I think I'm mostly surprised by how the Nitrate and Nitrite readings didn't drop the same way the ammonia did. I do wonder if maybe the Arag Alive sand has something to do with that. I took the opportunity of having an almost empty tank as an ideal time to add the sand but it would have been interesting to have changed the water, tested, and then added the sand and tested again just to see if that had any impact. I didn't think of if because I was not expecting these readings and also didn't want to try and place the sand with the tank full.
Shirak
Valuable Member
I would probably run tests on some fresh salt water just make sure everything is good there. It sounds like your using good quality water so unlikely you will find something but doesn't hurt to rule it out and not adding any unexpected nitrates or something. Of course if the test kits are screwy and they do show something you can't be certain it's the water or the test unless it's confirmed with another test kit! ugh...
Personally I think something wonky in the tests.. I have never once tested for ammonia or nitrite. I have used the badges in QT tanks but that's it. I have a hard time believing your cycle isn't good based on the time frame regardless of what the tests show.
Personally I think something wonky in the tests.. I have never once tested for ammonia or nitrite. I have used the badges in QT tanks but that's it. I have a hard time believing your cycle isn't good based on the time frame regardless of what the tests show.
100% of cycling charts we can find in books, or online, do not allow for this duration, that's the prime way we know this is a false stuck cycle. it is literally impossible to find in scientific data that allows for a cycle to take this long, but where we find that abundantly: in forum posts not using seneye and factoring nitrite in the cycle.
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the truth is we dont need any form of testing ammonia to call your cycle. you have nitrogen conversion species shown clearly, plus mega time submerged, you're done but I know its easy for a random internet guy to type such things lol when for three decades we've relied on the test kits to allow. this is the evolution of cycling in process, and there is no harm in waiting your tank is building up a nice micro burgeoning food network anyway with the wait.
IMO - it is still a combination of this two. Bare bottom means much lesser space for benthic bacteria film to establish itself and Red Seas mature kit favour heterotrophic bacteria that compete out the nitrifiers from the much lesser available space,
Sincerely Lasse
Its important to know if you changed your water, and added life, it would live, because you can oxidize ammonia safely. the kind of bacteria doing the job doesn't matter, those wax and wane over time anyway in population adjustment based on variables
we are tracking this in our cycle analysis threads and I like to name a clear start date in each example, to contrast how there is no clear start date before we make the clear call. The number one deficit in old cycle science vs new is that nobody can name the allowed start date ahead of time
but they all start reef conventions on the same date, known ahead of time...very interesting. those reefs support fifty thousand dollars in animals, they're much more delicate than our starts...they always pull it off safely for decades because they do not use old cycling science, 60 day wait periods, to manage any aspect of a reef convention or a functioning LFS that sells reef animals.
its literally only forum posters told they must wait this long
we are tracking this in our cycle analysis threads and I like to name a clear start date in each example, to contrast how there is no clear start date before we make the clear call. The number one deficit in old cycle science vs new is that nobody can name the allowed start date ahead of time
but they all start reef conventions on the same date, known ahead of time...very interesting. those reefs support fifty thousand dollars in animals, they're much more delicate than our starts...they always pull it off safely for decades because they do not use old cycling science, 60 day wait periods, to manage any aspect of a reef convention or a functioning LFS that sells reef animals.
its literally only forum posters told they must wait this long
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brs has a nice video on cycling for four months before adding life so the benthic food webs are built up, there's a neat cycling approach for any way we like to use
By keeping lights low/off the whole time you're saving a headache in tank uglies management
By month four on our speed cycle reefs they're already battling diatoms mixed with cyano, price of the quick start. We got them a good filter going in each case, they wanted fast fish carry ability
but battling uglies while adding corals is not fun. I'm down for waiting in reef planning when it's for right reasons, nice micro community build up time is great
By keeping lights low/off the whole time you're saving a headache in tank uglies management
By month four on our speed cycle reefs they're already battling diatoms mixed with cyano, price of the quick start. We got them a good filter going in each case, they wanted fast fish carry ability
but battling uglies while adding corals is not fun. I'm down for waiting in reef planning when it's for right reasons, nice micro community build up time is great
One thing just pop up in my mind - there has been some reports from stalled cycles (between first and second step) that a very small PO4 addition get the second stage to work in a day or two. And adding Dr Tims is a good idea too - if it is nitrospira and no combination mixture. Do you have reef roids for your other aquaria? Its high in free PO4.Yeah, at this point I didn't see any harm in adding the Dr. Tims and waiting since I also just added the sand. It's like a bad book you can't stop reading
Sincerely Lasse
Randy Holmes-Farley
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My order of Dr' Tim's arrived so last night I changed out approx 50g of the total 70g volume. The look of the bare bottom finally got to me so I also added approx 1.5 - 2 inches of sand (a mix of CaribSea Arag Alive sizes) before replacing the water and let everything settle overnight.
This morning I did a fresh set of tests and these were the results which I found a bit surprising considering the amount of water swapped out:
Nitrite: 1+
Nitrate: 20+
Ammonia: .02 - .04
I was expecting the nitrate and nitrite to fall much lower after such a big water change.
So, today I'll be adding Dr. Tims and see where this goes.
I've had at least 20 reef tanks in my life so far and this is the only one that's had an odd cycle. I don't know whether to think it was the bare bottom or the Red Sea starter or maybe I just did something wrong but I'm looking forward to getting the cycle completed.
The nitrate reading is not accurate, since the nitrite is likely interfering. I'd just give it more time for the nitrite to fall.
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