Cycling first tank with Microbacter 7. What to expect?

OP
K

kilnakorr

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 4, 2020
Messages
305
Reaction score
169
Location
Denmark
But it looks like a lot of water in that tank compared to rock. You got sand? What’s NITRITE at?
Yes. I got sand.
Just did a nitrite test. It's salifert and close to expiration date, so not sure it can be trusted. Shows 0.1ppm, the highest I've seen yet.
Nitrate looked very high earlier, which is a bit odd as not that much ammonia have been present?
 
Tommy's Phyto
OP
K

kilnakorr

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 4, 2020
Messages
305
Reaction score
169
Location
Denmark
Nice small bioload to start with. If nitrate truly is high, I think you’re good to do a water change and go shopping.
I just did a new nitrate test (new kit, AF) and it shows somewhere around 50 ppm.
It might be fine to add a few fish at the moment, but I'd rather wait until I feel/ can test ammonia is being converted at a decent range.
Right now, I don't trust what is going on in the tank.

Question: Nitrate tests shows false high if nitrite is present (I've been told). Nitrite can slow down convertion of ammonia (bacteria growth).
Is it possible my nitrite are high, thus slowing down the ammonia converting bacteria?
 
Orphek OR3 reef aquarium LED lighting

Garf

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 23, 2020
Messages
684
Reaction score
921
Location
Earth
I just did a new nitrate test (new kit, AF) and it shows somewhere around 50 ppm.
It might be fine to add a few fish at the moment, but I'd rather wait until I feel/ can test ammonia is being converted at a decent range.
Right now, I don't trust what is going on in the tank.

Question: Nitrate tests shows false high if nitrite is present (I've been told). Nitrite can slow down convertion of ammonia (bacteria growth).
Is it possible my nitrite are high, thus slowing down the ammonia converting bacteria?
I think 0.1 nitrite converts to a high nitrate Reading of around 2ppm, so there’s still lots actually converted. I commend your patience, once again :)
 

Dan1788

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 7, 2019
Messages
44
Reaction score
19
I added a fish when using this within the first 24hrs so it is to late for you to that now.
To be fair when I used bac7 it did take a while to cycle and that was with a fish.
Brightwells do a kit now for cycling tanks with I can't remember what it's called but Jake Adams RB did a review of it on one of his vids and used a Seneye to mointer it and got a fully cycled system in about 4days ish.
 

Reef.

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Messages
2,306
Reaction score
1,740
Yes. I got sand.
Just did a nitrite test. It's salifert and close to expiration date, so not sure it can be trusted. Shows 0.1ppm, the highest I've seen yet.
Nitrate looked very high earlier, which is a bit odd as not that much ammonia have been present?

A bit odd? Didn’t we talk about why nitrate looked high ;)
 
OP
K

kilnakorr

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 4, 2020
Messages
305
Reaction score
169
Location
Denmark
A bit odd? Didn’t we talk about why nitrate looked high ;)
Yes. Which is why I added the nitrite/nitrate question earlier.
If nitrate test also includes nitrite, it could show higher ppm. But nitrite test doesn't show much nitrite. So, high nitrate could also be high nitrite IF my test kit isn't reliable at all.
 
OP
K

kilnakorr

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 4, 2020
Messages
305
Reaction score
169
Location
Denmark
I think 0.1 nitrite converts to a high nitrate Reading of around 2ppm, so there’s still lots actually converted. I commend your patience, once again :)
I've noted this down, but not double checked:
1 ppm ammonia --> 2.7 ppm nitrite --> 3.6 ppm nitrate.
So, I could have both high nitrite and some nitrate. Guess I could try to find a new nitrite test, just to be sure.
 
Zoanthids.com

Reef.

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Messages
2,306
Reaction score
1,740
Yes. Which is why I added the nitrite/nitrate question earlier.
If nitrate test also includes nitrite, it could show higher ppm. But nitrite test doesn't show much nitrite. So, high nitrate could also be high nitrite IF my test kit isn't reliable at all.

You are assuming they are counted one for one, for every nitrite present the nitrate reading will be many times higher.

My guess is that is the reason the test works the way it does, it’s easier to count the nitrite than the nitrates as the numbers are more manageable.
 
OP
K

kilnakorr

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 4, 2020
Messages
305
Reaction score
169
Location
Denmark
You are assuming they are counted one for one, for every nitrite present the nitrate reading will be many times higher.

My guess is that is the reason the test works the way it does, it’s easier to count the nitrite than the nitrates as the numbers are more manageable.
I wonder how many times higher.
My chemestry skills and logic tells me that one NO3 can only be converted to one NO2, as no additional nitrogen is added. Unless, the reaction from the test reacts with the atmosphere, where both nitrogen and oxygen are present, or the reagents themselves contain a nitrogen source.
 

Reef.

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Messages
2,306
Reaction score
1,740
I wonder how many times higher.
My chemestry skills and logic tells me that one NO3 can only be converted to one NO2, as no additional nitrogen is added. Unless, the reaction from the test reacts with the atmosphere, where both nitrogen and oxygen are present, or the reagents themselves contain a nitrogen source.

Your logic seems to go only one way ;)

Where did all these nitrates come from then if one for one is the logical answer?

I know if you wait for your nitrites to zero out your nitrates will be showing less than they are now.

I saw a comment further up saying your tank looked bare of rocks...could be a factor if you don’t have any media in the sump for the slow ammonia conversion, I have recently removed a load of biological media from my tank and seen a raise in nitrates, I’m now in the process of replacing the media.
 
OP
K

kilnakorr

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 4, 2020
Messages
305
Reaction score
169
Location
Denmark
Your logic seems to go only one way ;)

Where did all these nitrates come from then if one for one is the logical answer?

I know if you wait for your nitrites to zero out your nitrates will be showing less than they are now.

I saw a comment further up saying your tank looked bare of rocks...could be a factor if you don’t have any media in the sump for the slow ammonia conversion, I have recently removed a load of biological media from my tank and seen a raise in nitrates, I’m now in the process of replacing the media.
True. Little surface area could mean less room for bacteria to grow. I wouldn't think much is needed to convert 1 ppm ammonia though.
I could easily add some good media in some media bags and place those in the sump, but would prefer nit have too much 'crap collecting' stuff in there.
 
OP
K

kilnakorr

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 4, 2020
Messages
305
Reaction score
169
Location
Denmark
Well, the salifert test kit was useless as suspected.
Tried a different, new kit. Hard to tell exactly, as it seems testkit color charts are all produced by the same colorblind person:
20210117_141458.jpg


Looks closer to 5ppm than 2.
 
AS

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
16,719
Reaction score
13,569
Location
tejas
Reef

we are on page five here for a reef cycling 30 days

ive seen you working pretty hard to troubleshoot this cycle, nice job

big picture question to the crowd: have you ever noticed how cycling charts that prove his surface area is already cycled are ignored when someone posts conflicting test reads? Takes two seconds to finalize this cycle, he’s done. change the waste water and begin reefing for the love of Pete or we will soon be on page 20 after buying ten day bac.

if those cycling charts are wrong, then expect all wastewater plants in each city to close today due to inability to predict if clean water will flow or not. They might stall heh.

Report nitrite on day 25 even though there is none per the chart, and the crowd chants - stalled

and then we buy more things...for a completed cycle.

we don’t value the chart, we value the kits because they’re our lifeline to completing a cycle as Dr Tim said on page one, so kick out the 80 year, never wrong cycle chart without hez

guess how many times I’ve seen a cycling chart wrong on a cycle in fifty thousand online cycles- zero

so that means this tank....




regarding nitrate- 50 ppm spread on a given sample between kits, posts show even as recently as this week, common.

free ammonia, don’t even go there lol every reef tank reports it using tube color kits.

time frames are all we have to make sense of cycles, and snippet clues which you’ve caught well.
how far past the date on the bottles of bac are we in this thread?



relative to how much surface area is in this tank, that surface is fully cycled and any test kit stated has zero bearing on the truth here.


this thread is classic hesitation, stuck till Easter old school false measure issues. If anyone tried to manage a reef convention using these standards they'd apparently need to open the convention 45 days early so each entrant could be possibly ready by the start date, and then some still wouldn’t be able to begin.


nobody has ever managed a reef convention/ 500 reefs ready on Friday using any aspect of cycling found in this thread. And that’s for reefs carrying half a million in rare specimens, here we are struggling to carry two clownfish :)


this thread is patently exactly why we’ve made new cycling rules in the hobby. Nobody who sells cycling products should be the final say on whether cycles can stall or not, independent studies show polar opposite truth. No reef takes longer to cycle than a cycling chart shows, the bottles we add make it happen faster.

who cares what the test kits say, we can tell the bottle bac weren’t dead since -any- metabolites have appeared and they sure have. Once that machinery is verified we simply cross reference the time/param measure on a cycling chart and thats where the tank stands once the wastewater and random ammonia doses have been cleaned out.

the water change puts clean water over an in-place biofilter and scum layer housing the bacteria on surfaces. Cycling is no longer about waiting for wastewater to clear on kits that won’t show it due to multi quality control issues.

Change water for new to streamline algae growith coming, and begin, this tank is cycled relative to how much surface area is in line.


there’s no need to go to page twelve, though we are about to. I bet the tank cannot be started until spring break at minimum using the current standard of measure.
 
Last edited:
OP
K

kilnakorr

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 4, 2020
Messages
305
Reaction score
169
Location
Denmark
Reef

we are on page five here for a reef cycling 30 days

ive seen you working pretty hard to troubleshoot this cycle, nice job

big picture question to the crowd: have you ever noticed how cycling charts that prove his surface area is already cycled are ignored when someone posts conflicting test reads? Takes two seconds to finalize this cycle, he’s done. change the waste water and begin reefing for the love of Pete or we will soon be on page 20 after buying ten day bac.


Report nitrite on day 25 even though there is none per the chart, and the crowd chants - stalled

and then we buy more things...for a completed cycle.

we don’t value the chart, we value the kits because they’re our lifeline to completing a cycle as Dr Tim said on page one, so kick out the 80 year, never wrong cycle chart without hez

guess how many times I’ve seen a cycling chart wrong on a cycle in fifty thousand online cycles- zero

so that means this tank....


regarding free nitrite stated- we have thirty links right now handy for false nitrite positives, but that won’t affect the perception here. He is determined to be stalled, so the cycle seems that way because that’s what’s wanted. Even though stalling cannot occur in reefing, Dr Tim’s video says it can, so lots of dr Tim’s bac gets sold, neat timing.

regarding nitrate- 50 ppm spread on a given sample between kits, posts show even as recently as this week, common.

free ammonia, don’t even go there lol every reef tank reports it using tube color kits.

time frames are all we have to make sense of cycles, and snippet clues which you’ve caught well.
how far past the date on the bottles of bac are we in this thread?

this link is going in our stuck cycle thread as an example of not being stuck, whatsoever. Cheap test kits are leading by the nose around the ring over and over endlessly, but then again that’s what the Dr Tim video tells us to do so no fault of the masses.


relative to how much surface area is in this tank, that surface is fully cycled and any test kit stated has zero bearing on the truth here.


this thread is classic hesitation, stuck till Easter old school false measure issues. If anyone tried to manage a reef convention using these standards they'd apparently need to open the convention 45 days early so each entrant could be possibly ready by the start date.


nobody has ever managed a reef convention/ 500 reefs ready on Friday using any aspect of cycling found in this thread. And that’s for reefs carrying half a million in rare specimens, here we are struggling to carry two clownfish :)


this thread is patently exactly why we’ve made new cycling rules in the hobby. Nobody who sells cycling products should be the final say on whether cycles can stall or not, independent studies show polar opposite truth.
Thanks for your input. And yes, I should be cycled an nitrite proves it.
As a newbie I'd rather be on the safe side (meaning, I like to have a good feeling adding livestock).
There's also a few unknown variables, like the amount of ammonia the first 2 weeks.
Also, I don't mind waiting, testing and discuss the progress or lack of it.
I often read about impatience,especially beginners, so please don't let me wait a bit if I feel better with that approach.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
16,719
Reaction score
13,569
Location
tejas
Thats fair, no harm in extended wait.

cant blame me though for wanting specific start times in reefing, we have several times where a predicted safe cycle is needed such as setting up emergency tanks for main breaks, or home moves, or tank upgrades, all things that require a deliberate process.

you can understand how I like to apply that to all tanks, new ones are not using a different system than we do when full reefs depend on an accurate cycle. New reefs just have it rough because the old rules are all they’ve seen to use

it is indeed ok to wait a few more weeks but there’s one hidden cost: this thinking on bacteria stifles future action from you that can mean the difference between loss or retention. A notion of weak bacteria means we do something partial vs complete in the future, and that’s a loss risk

bacterial hesitation has future implications for sure, best to square up now in my opinion. Change water, add life that you know matches the degree of surface area, and see the bacteria as trustworthy and predictable 100% and see your test kits never agree the whole time, and that now lines up with the myriad false test readings threads you can search out for your kits
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
16,719
Reaction score
13,569
Location
tejas
Sadly I attribute the Dr Tims video on page one as the major cause of this unneeded wait and expenditure in the hobby. He says reef water has no cycling bac in that video, and then we made this thread showing the opposite:



we cycled a totally dry reef in twenty days (cycling chart theme) using literally only tank water. Video busted.

*he may have been talking about certain species of cycling bac missing from water, while accessory species that still perform filtration were excluded from the statement but still present

Reef water has lots of cycling bacteria, opposite from the claim in the video.

claims about nitrite stalling a cycle from the video: see this short read:



we fed none extra

we dosed nothing extra

we did reef water only, a cycle chart, then he posts a full reef using the method. ****look how we used testing there, thats how to make ammonia kits work***

we omitted nitrite and nitrate from the equation for obvious reasons.
 
Last edited:

Reef.

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Messages
2,306
Reaction score
1,740
True. Little surface area could mean less room for bacteria to grow. I wouldn't think much is needed to convert 1 ppm ammonia though.
I could easily add some good media in some media bags and place those in the sump, but would prefer nit have too much 'crap collecting' stuff in there.

That was my reason for removing the media, collected more detritus than seemed to be helping, before I removed it, my nitrates were a constant 12, the day I removed the media they dropped to 5, now they are a constant 25, seems to me the drop was the removal of the detritus, but the increase was maybe the removal of the media...all guess work but nothing changed in the tank apart from the media.

The deciding factor for me was seeing a picture the other day of the inside of Real reef rock, it was solid!

I’ve now come up with a solution were I can have the media and keep it clean, probably easier in my nano tank which is an aio than working with a sump!

Apparently Seacham ammonia test is very good, bit like a pregnancy test...you are either the proud owner of an ammonia ladened tank or not!
 
BRS

What types of R2R interview articles are you most excited about?

  • Specific reef topics! (List the ones you'd like to see us cover in the thread.)

    Votes: 49 37.1%
  • Specific reef personalities! (List the people you'd like us to interview in the thread.)

    Votes: 6 4.5%
  • Not that concerned about the topics...I just wanna see the awesome PICTURES!

    Votes: 28 21.2%
  • All of the above!! ...and yes, I'll list some in the thread. :-)

    Votes: 49 37.1%

Online statistics

Members online
2,372
Guests online
6,735
Total visitors
9,107
Tommy's Phyto
Top