Cycling issue??

[Brian mcguirt]

I have a 75 gal tank with about 100lbs rock in main and 40lbs in sump. I'm confused on my tank parameters. Yank has been up and going for 2 weeks, I've added a bottle of turbo start 900 per directions as well as nitrocycle from algae barn. I've done one 15 gal and one 40 gal water change during this time using rodi water. However my water chemistry has not changed, even after water change.

DKH 8.6
CALCIUM 520
SALINITY 35PPM
PHOS 0.27
AMMONIA 2.50PPM
NITRITE 0.2PPM
NITRATE 75PPM
TEMP 78
The numbers never changed even after water changes which isn't making since. I am using hanna checkers and then used another brand new set of hanna checkers as backup and got same readings and have been testing daily.

Why is this happening?

 

[Jekyl]

Did you add ammonia? If you did, did you account for the displacement of the rocks and sand? For instance your 75g with sump may actually only be 60g

 

[brandon429]

it's happening solely because your test kits aren't digital nh3 test kits. they're nh4 test kits I'll bet, non digital, that require conversion before relaying the params to us and even then, a massive portion of readouts are just totally wrong. you are cycled, and can't not be cycled, your test is wrong.

I made some assumptions about ghost feeding/ ammonia loading here solely off the nitrate readings estimated, even if they're nitrite misreads. not 0

 

[brandon429]

**if this was a rare reading by the new hanna ammonia checker (digital, nh3) then I'm still not convinced that this cycle is broken, let's see tank pics and the actual meter readout. I have only seen two posts on the entire site about the meter and on one of the posts it was showing .9 ppm in a fully cycled system, which was not impressive accuracy but then again there could be tuning nuances or hardware preps needed for the device we don't know about.

most ammonia reads are api and red sea/the non digital type.

can you post a reading of ammonia on your kit from a known running/cycled reef? I'd be curious to see that.

 

[Dan_P]

I have a 75 gal tank with about 100lbs rock in main and 40lbs in sump. I'm confused on my tank parameters. Yank has been up and going for 2 weeks, I've added a bottle of turbo start 900 per directions as well as nitrocycle from algae barn. I've done one 15 gal and one 40 gal water change during this time using rodi water. However my water chemistry has not changed, even after water change.

DKH 8.6
CALCIUM 520
SALINITY 35PPM
PHOS 0.27
AMMONIA 2.50PPM
NITRITE 0.2PPM
NITRATE 75PPM
TEMP 78
The numbers never changed even after water changes which isn't making since. I am using hanna checkers and then used another brand new set of hanna checkers as backup and got same readings and have been testing daily.

Why is this happening?

If total ammonia has been at 2.5ppm with no additional doses for two weeks, something is broken. Since hardly any nitrite is present, we might conclude the bacteria product was a dud. The nitrate reading is not to be trusted in the presence of nitrite. 75 ppm NO3 corresponds to about 18 ppm NH3 oxidized. Clearly, the measurement is nonsense.

 

[Brian mcguirt]

**if this was a rare reading by the new hanna ammonia checker (digital, nh3) then I'm still not convinced that this cycle is broken, let's see tank pics and the actual meter readout. I have only seen two posts on the entire site about the meter and on one of the posts it was showing .9 ppm in a fully cycled system, which was not impressive accuracy but then again there could be tuning nuances or hardware preps needed for the device we don't know about.

most ammonia reads are api and red sea/the non digital type.

can you post a reading of ammonia on your kit from a known running/cycled reef? I'd be curious to see that.

Here are my readings taken just now.
30gal water change was yesterday.

 

[Brian mcguirt]

If total ammonia has been at 2.5ppm with no additional doses for two weeks, something is broken. Since hardly any nitrite is present, we might conclude the bacteria product was a dud. The nitrate reading is not to be trusted in the presence of nitrite. 75 ppm NO3 corresponds to about 18 ppm NH3 oxidized. Clearly, the measurement is nonsense.

I just re took tests and posted photos below

 

[Brian mcguirt]

I have a 75 gal tank with about 100lbs rock in main and 40lbs in sump. I'm confused on my tank parameters. Yank has been up and going for 2 weeks, I've added a bottle of turbo start 900 per directions as well as nitrocycle from algae barn. I've done one 15 gal and one 40 gal water change during this time using rodi water. However my water chemistry has not changed, even after water change.

DKH 8.6
CALCIUM 520
SALINITY 35PPM
PHOS 0.27
AMMONIA 2.50PPM
NITRITE 0.2PPM
NITRATE 75PPM
TEMP 78
The numbers never changed even after water changes which isn't making since. I am using hanna checkers and then used another brand new set of hanna checkers as backup and got same readings and have been testing daily.

Why is this happening?

 

[brandon429]

That's solid. Solid pics and a more solid system


You can't possibly have better surface area nor better positioning for the rock, it's the best filter scape you can position in the tank.

Fritz has been charted as instantly able to carry bioload. If you don't want to do this test next I understand,
Don't blame you, it's taboo.

But I ask a hundred times a year in stalled cycle threads to develop patterns on file... and nobody has ever failed this test/ not asking to set you up for a fail/ asking to set up new cycling science into a pattern win:

Please go get one clownfish from a pet store and net it over into your reef we suspect has poison water/ lethal kill


The clownfish will live and act fine just as all fish are doing in every stalled cycle post on the internet

I take public responsibility if it writhes and dies like 2.5 ppm nh3 will do to a creature its not on you
The sum total of twenty years cycle thread patterning is asking for this test because I think your kit is misreading, just like every stalled cycle thread I've ever seen.


If your fish lives and acts perfectly, which it will based on any search of any stalled cycle thread ever posted, then that means something too

Living vs dying animals is the final say in cycling. We never get to see this cliffhanger, we only get test kits just certain of a bad cycle. Never, never ever a set of dead animals in cloudy bad water.

If you planned on following Jay's disease prevention protocol then don't do my test, the cliffhanger continues. But 99.9999% of cyclers are going to direct add fish when peers give a ready date. And I call it ready now, and a test misread even though that is plainly digital and nh3. If your test fails I'll put you at link read #1 here so readers can see I killed a clownfish.


That's 32 pages in a row of assigning cycle ready dates, are we getting the first fail today? Gotta plop in a fish to know. You're at two weeks, after bottle bac, after feeding. This whole thread is ran on day ten tests:

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

non digital ammonia test kit readings (api, Red Sea, nyos, seachem badges) make you think you aren’t cycled when indeed you are if you owned a $200 expensive seneye meter, you’d never be doubting your cycle status. since .01% of the reefing population owns these, we need a way to help the...

www.reef2reef.com

Don't acclimate the clownfish, I see acclimation stresses and kills frequently. Make sure your salinity is reef normal then net the fish directly into the tank and watch him swim, act normally

He will not flash around, jolting, flailing and twisting in agony at the top due to gill damage due to nh3 burning. If your water is poison his opercular rate will increase within 4 minutes of addition and you can remove him

But at 4 minutes, or at 40 thousand minutes, he's going to swim and act normal.

 

[brandon429]

If you run this test based on meeting all the markers we use to assign start dates, regardless of outcome I'll rewrite that entire first post in that big thread based on your outcome, you're positioned this well to influence updated cycling science.

We must see what a fish does in order to shore this up, without the missing variable there can be no solid claim of a broken cycle.

I take responsibility for the fish, it's my advice to add him because I think new cycling rules get way better results than old cycling rules and new rules on file above said you were ready last week

 

[brandon429]

I would not have advised the test if the ammonia was 100% unchanged and all other readouts said 0. Since some oxidation is in play, our rules say that much surface area attachment space above plus the time past the ammonia drop date on a cycling chart (day ten) means on seneye, calibrated and benched on a running reef tank, you'd be reading /001-.006~ ppm max nh3 right now given the variables supplied so far.


I feel there is no partial or half cycle there's cycled, or not cycled, no middle zone. I derive that from the ammonia drop dates on hundreds of seneye logs, none were an arc of 2-4 weeks and the fact that much surface area in the middle of the tank will not permit unused free ammonia, it's bacteria will oxidize that waste right up cleanly and fast.

ammonia drops are fast, rapid, sustained, and directly match the fact that fish swimming around a tank and feeding everyday means cycled/can carry bioload


There is no basis for ammonia to be stuck halfway converted here. If a netted over clownfish is dead in two hours I'll be just floored amazed and if it's not then we can't just keep getting lucky for 33 pages, some type of pattern is in play here to be causing test kit/symptom nonconnects in every example of a stalled cycle. nobody ever actually gets to the dying fish part, that comes months later via one of the vectored diseases Jay reviews in his disease forum.

 

[Brian mcguirt]

I would not have advised the test if the ammonia was 100% unchanged and all other readouts said 0. Since some oxidation is in play, our rules say that much surface area attachment space above plus the time past the ammonia drop date on a cycling chart (day ten) means on seneye, calibrated and benched on a running reef tank, you'd be reading /001-.006~ ppm max nh3 right now given the variables supplied so far.


I feel there is no partial or half cycle there's cycled, or not cycled, no middle zone. I derive that from the ammonia drop dates on hundreds of seneye logs, none were an arc of 2-4 weeks and the fact that much surface area in the middle of the tank will not permit unused free ammonia, it's bacteria will oxidize that waste right up cleanly and fast.

ammonia drops are fast, rapid, sustained, and directly match the fact that fish swimming around a tank and feeding everyday means cycled/can carry bioload


There is no basis for ammonia to be stuck halfway converted here. If a netted over clownfish is dead in two hours I'll be just floored amazed and if it's not then we can't just keep getting lucky for 33 pages, some type of pattern is in play here to be causing test kit/symptom nonconnects in every example of a stalled cycle. nobody ever actually gets to the dying fish part, that comes months later via one of the vectored diseases Jay reviews in his disease forum.

I'll be getting fish on Tuesday and see how it goes. And I'll keep testing to see if it changes at all. Should I do another water change? When I changed the water yesterday, I tested the after and there was a drop in ammonia, but now its back to where it's been the last 10dys or so. Sand is new, rock was dry for a few weeks before putting it back in but was washed with rodi water prior to putting in the tank

 

[Garf]

I'll be getting fish on Tuesday and see how it goes. And I'll keep testing to see if it changes at all. Should I do another water change? When I changed the water yesterday, I tested the after and there was a drop in ammonia, but now its back to where it's been the last 10dys or so. Sand is new, rock was dry for a few weeks before putting it back in but was washed with rodi water prior to putting in the tank

Test some freshly made saltwater. Even then, new mixes can have a little ammonia but nowhere near the levels your Hanna is reporting. May give you an idea though.

 

[Jekyl]

I'll be getting fish on Tuesday and see how it goes. And I'll keep testing to see if it changes at all. Should I do another water change? When I changed the water yesterday, I tested the after and there was a drop in ammonia, but now its back to where it's been the last 10dys or so. Sand is new, rock was dry for a few weeks before putting it back in but was washed with rodi water prior to putting in the tank

Was the rock used before? If so could be some die off from previous use. Usually before adding fish you want to get nitrate in order. So a large 75 or 80% water change is usually recommended. Best to get in order now before anything is in there.

 

[brandon429]

I would do nothing in remediation bc we want that water as it sits now tested and verified. Taking readings on the meter between now and then is ok, curious if changes and where it lands after a change if any

 

[brandon429]

The reason your rocks don't concern me is because they weren't knurled in growth. You can take one out right now and whack it in half with a hammer: there won't be coiled up worms inside its just inside the surfaces

Test a broken rock. Smell the inside now that hydrated two weeks, if smells normal like a tank rule out your rocks. True ammonia leak will smell accordingly

Smelling your rock inside and out briefly is a decent way to audit this issue. It'll take serious and obvious rot to overcome day 1 carry ability of fritz, the best fastest bac we saw tested in Dr Reefs bottle bac thread

I'm fascinated with the physical ways we verify cycles vs depending on a test kit for permission. These rocks can smell like an aquarium, lakelike, true rot will smell like broken rotten egg especially in the center so go run a test break let's see inside.

 

[Brian mcguirt]

Was the rock used before? If so could be some die off from previous use. Usually before adding fish you want to get nitrate in order. So a large 75 or 80% water change is usually recommended. Best to get in order now before anything is in there.

Yea I want it to all be spot on, mostly bc it's going to be a reef tank, so definitely want pot on parameters. The rock was used, but drive for several weeks prior to use and was washed with rodi water prior to entering tank

I would do nothing in remediation bc we want that water as it sits now tested and verified. Taking readings on the meter between now and then is ok, curious if changes and where it lands after a change if any

I tested fresh made water and it was 0.13

 

[Garf]

Yea I want it to all be spot on, mostly bc it's going to be a reef tank, so definitely want pot on parameters. The rock was used, but drive for several weeks prior to use and was washed with rodi water prior to entering tank

I tested fresh made water and it was 0.13

Ok, Hanna seems to be working. What’s the maximum reading on those things? You may have had some driveway die off.

 

[brandon429]

I wouldnt add to your display or change water in it if you're interested in doing the symptoms test. just let it ride until tuesday and put one fish in it, chart for a few hours, if he's normal then that tank carries fish like all the patterns we see. and if he is in poison water, his behavior will indicate that in obvious ways, not just swimming directly in a corner or something. he'll flop and die if burned.

the fact your device reads .1 in fresh mixed water, where the lethal range is .05 in most circles of analysis-that is a stat oulier because its coming from no test load water and still stating alarm/concern ammonia.

(hey have you verified all settings and procedures on the device itself are correct? are there any calibration steps to take, or can you select between nh4 and nh3??)

that still leads towards test issues, there are no known reef salts that mix up lethal amounts of nh3, not any. not ever.

there's some ammonia in reef salts going off the totality of Randy's posts and writeups, but not .1 nh3 / nope/ none of them mix to that level is my firm bet.

 

[Garf]

Ok, Hanna seems to be working. What’s the maximum reading on those things? You may have had some driveway die off.

Never mind, lol. It’s maxed out @ 2.5
I would not put a fish in it, as is;