"dark Hobby" documentary

[Clownfish_Boy]

But, we are to blame if we choose to buy a wild caught specimen when an aqua cultured one is available. The push to more aqcuaculturing should be the goal which will require taking some wild caught specimens to start the culture process.

Certainly aquaculturing is the way to go for the future, a very "green" thing to do. The one drawback is the added expense of aquaculturing (at least in the case of tank-raised fishes), $100 for a $30 clownfish is very discouraging to would-be buyers of the fish. Hopefully they will be able to get their operating cost and the price down as time goes on. I personally wouldn't mind paying a few extra bucks for aquacultured specimens, as long as the prices were not too exorbitant.

 

[blasterman]

The freshwater aquarium industry has been almost 100% aquaculture for decades. No problems there.

The marine industry though has only recently been moving to aquaculture because they dont want to invest in the tech to do it except for a few companies. Its simply easier and cheaper to use cyanide on wild fish.

 

[MaxTremors]

The freshwater aquarium industry has been almost 100% aquaculture for decades. No problems there.

The marine industry though has only recently been moving to aquaculture because they dont want to invest in the tech to do it except for a few companies. Its simply easier and cheaper to use cyanide on wild fish.

It has been for the average community tank fish and especially African cichlids, but anything more exotic or uncommon is still wild caught. Even neon tetras are still collected from the Amazon in massive numbers.

 

[Tuffyyyyy]

Certainly aquaculturing is the way to go for the future, a very "green" thing to do. The one drawback is the added expense of aquaculturing (at least in the case of tank-raised fishes), $100 for a $30 clownfish is very discouraging to would-be buyers of the fish. Hopefully they will be able to get their operating cost and the price down as time goes on. I personally wouldn't mind paying a few extra bucks for aquacultured specimens, as long as the prices were not too exorbitant.

In what world are you paying $100 for a captive bred ocellaris clownfish? That's like $20 on a bad day. Overall though the price for captive bred is negligible unless it's new (storm clowns 2 years ago), or it was already difficult to keep in the first place (anything from Poma Labs).

 

[reefs4life]

Honestly, I can understand the point this "documentary" but until you see what is really happening in the ocean in the means of bycatch at ridiculously large scales, I don't think our little fish make quiet as much of an impact. Don't get me wrong, there's no denying an impact is being made but the reefing community does give back some knowledge to conservation.

Watch Seaspiracy on Netflix, compare it to this and tell me what the real, major issue in the oceans is.

And one other thing, I saw an article that mentioned how Achilles tangs can no longer be collected, obviously because Hawaii shut down, however it's ok to collect them by the millions for food. Obviously nutrition beats pleasure, however, the food industry has an insane amount of waste, especially here in the states. Whether 8 out of 10 of our fish may die in the hobby, 100% of all fish caught for the food industry are already dead with God knows what else mixed in.

 

[NanoLuke]

I can further confirm that I think it is ridiculous that the focus here is on the marine aquarium industry, a VERY tiny fraction of the effects on the ocean wildlife in comparison to the massive and extremely problematic fishing industry. In general, I do think that this will eventually push some further efforts towards aqua-culturing and breeding species that were once unbreedable and simply caught in the wild. However, while our understanding of marine biology has come a long way in the last few decades, we still are far from capable of achieving many of these things, let alone even finding people who are willing to put an insane amount of money into aqua-culture experiments that may not work out. The Yellow Tang breakthrough was amazing yet just a stepping stone for a long effort ahead. Here are a couple of nice videos I watched on the topic:

 

[MaxTremors]

I can further confirm that I think it is ridiculous that the focus here is on the marine aquarium industry, a VERY tiny fraction of the effects on the ocean wildlife in comparison to the massive and extremely problematic fishing industry. In general, I do think that this will eventually push some further efforts towards aqua-culturing and breeding species that were once unbreedable and simply caught in the wild. However, while our understanding of marine biology has come a long way in the last few decades, we still are far from capable of achieving many of these things, let alone even finding people who are willing to put an insane amount of money into aqua-culture experiments that may not work out. The Yellow Tang breakthrough was amazing yet just a stepping stone for a long effort ahead. Here are a couple of nice videos I watched on the topic:

This kind of argument really just doesn’t work for me. It’s a rationalization to be apathetic and accept the status quo. It operates on the false notions that two (or more) problems can’t be worked on at the same time and that if two (or more) problems exist, only the bigger or more pressing problem deserves time and attention.

I understand a lot of people’s instinct to get defensive and to rationalize the ecological impact our hobby has, nobody wants to feel like they’re contributing to the ecological collapse of the reefs, but it does. It’s an ethical dilemma that we have to recognize and accept.

I’m not naive enough to think anyone one is going to make a big difference, but collectively we can move the industry towards sustainability. It’s as easy as voting with your dollars and encouraging other people to do the same. Hobbyists have made tons of advancements and breakthroughs in terms of coral propagation and captive breeding of fish (people like Kathy Leahy are figuring out how to breed dwarf angelfish in the Midwest!), so we can all add to the collective knowledge base to further reduce our dependence on wild caught stock. But we can’t deny that our hobby still has a significant impact of coral reefs, it’s still the reality of hobby.

 

[jorwill]

I also feel like having a hobby like ours while I do get we are stripping things from their natural environment it does happen to give some kids a purpose and that career path if you will to grow up and eventually be on the helping side.

 

[squatchaquarist]

I'm about to watch the documentary. I'm also on the side of seeing the need to acknowledge and reckon with our collective impacts head-on, whether it is through what we condone with the hobby, how we eat, how we use energy, how we build, how we treat one another.

We are a destructive species, and our cleverness for technological innovation (of the likes that has spawned industrial fishing fleets and mass factory productions of many other things) far out-maneuvers our actual intellectual capacities insofar as thinking about future repercussions and seeing the Big Picture, imo. But we can work, together, to inspire a sea-change in our respective communities that may ripple outward.

No one is gonna stop keeping aquariums, just like no one is gonna stop eating fish or keeping companion animals. Yes, the biggest culprits of ecological devastation are often giant faceless corporate entities whose power seems insurmountable, but the idealist in me hopes that the "little guy" is capable of cultivating helpful change on some scale that may create a domino effect.

I would LOVE to see a documentary focusing on the aquarium hobby that observes the good and the bad, and perhaps tries to pose ways aquarium keepers can evolve, and how we may all continue to help look out for the forms of life we seem to hold so precious. Advocating for aquaculture, for fish breeding research (by hobbyists and big name companies alike), by using our fascination and passion of aquatic life fuel a fire for conservation projects, for educating children and others around us, through publishing, lectures, art. Sure, it would be great if we NEVER took anything out of the ocean for our own pleasure and somehow all managed to live harmoniously with the planet, but for the moment I think we need to: face the negative consequences of our actions, and: use this as a way to learn and commit toward some better state of balance in the hobby, and perhaps in other parts of our lives as well. Keep your fish and corals, but perhaps also try to give back a little.

It's also not as black and white as wild vs captive bred. For instance: in the freshwater side of the equation, certain WILD caught fish provide income and conservation rationale for certain at-risk communities. By protecting the rivers and surrounding environments, the diversity, and hence the fish, these aquarium suppliers ensure for themselves dependable income at the very least, and the river basins receive vital protection.

See Project Piaba for an example of one such "fishery initiative" that I would like to see replicated in the marine hobby. https://projectpiaba.org

 

[JediCruz]

Certainly aquaculturing is the way to go for the future, a very "green" thing to do. The one drawback is the added expense of aquaculturing (at least in the case of tank-raised fishes), $100 for a $30 clownfish is very discouraging to would-be buyers of the fish. Hopefully they will be able to get their operating cost and the price down as time goes on. I personally wouldn't mind paying a few extra bucks for aquacultured specimens, as long as the prices were not too exorbitant.

Most clowns are aquacultured now. Very few wild caught in the system, at least where I’m at. In the beginning they were expensive, yes. But now I can get a regular Aquacultured clown for $25. So, if we look at that as a trend (optimistically) when aquaculture certain fish starts to ramp up like it did for the clowns, then prices go down. More people are successfully AC’ing Yellow Tangs so you’ll see that price go down over time. A AC yellow tang is cheaper than wild caught right now anyway but this is due to the Hawaii ban. It’s not doom and gloom for AC and the pricing. It won’t be quick, though. Supply and demand.

 

[Clownfish_Boy]

In what world are you paying $100 for a captive bred ocellaris clownfish? That's like $20 on a bad day. Overall though the price for captive bred is negligible unless it's new (storm clowns 2 years ago), or it was already difficult to keep in the first place (anything from Poma Labs).

ORA and Biota get $100 for a clownfish.

 

[iMi]

Haven’t seen it, but will check it out. There has been good news lately. There is evidence some reefs are adapting to the higher acidity and thriving. The Great Barrier Reef has expanded in recent years and there are at least two major reef restoration projects underway that I’ve heard about.

 

[Kershaw]

Deleted

 

[JCM]

You are all wrong. over population is the problem. Less people less damage to the environment. Government sterilization, applications for children. Just need to find a humane way to reduce population by half or more.
just saying.....

Easy there Thanos

 

[Kershaw]

Easy there Thanos

I was just going to an extreme

 

[KrisReef]

The only thing sustainable is?

Finger pointing.

The first law of thermodynamics has been rewritten ~You can't consume anything without producing waste.

Waste is evil.

How can you sleep knowing what a miserable destroyer of the planet you are?

The whole thought process has become toxic, so stop thinking and save yourself.

Thoughts most holy please spare us now the unholy guilt of knowing we consume, digest and defecate with impudence.

Was this film a sequel to Blackfish? First they came for Shamu, now they've come for Nemo.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

My opinion is that until people in this hobby call out the bogus scientific method/religion and so-called "science" employed to "prove" theories like anthropogenic global warming--the same bogus methods and so-called "science" will be employed to shut this hobby down....

Hate to break it to everyone but society and the scientific community accepting the non-scientific methods employed to supposedly show there is man made "global warming"--spelled the end of real science and created the latest (retread) era of political science...

I live in Washington state. 18,000 years ago my home was covered by a glacier... reefs were not where they are today. The weather was a heck of a lot different and no one was driving cars. Fast forward to today, a cosmic blip in time; People dont have a "global" impact on the weather--hate to break it to everyone--and so-called "science" trying to show otherwise is absurd and "junk" paid for crap. Just like the so called "science" supporting the Hawaii ban and attacking the aquarium trade.

Reefers better make the link.. because waaay too many pray to the manmade global warming god but then hypocritically call out the science supposedly supporting banning the aquarium trade. They're aint a dimes worth a difference in the either "science"--it's all junk. You cant criticize one and support the other. The methods, bogus as they are, are the same.

As Micheal Crichton, hardly someone against protecting the environment(!!), pointed out the manmade global warming theory is a religion relying on faith, not science.

Crichton: Environmentalism is a religion > Hawaii Free Press

Quite frankly, it's nauseating to watch scientists getting paid/funding to come to pre-determined, bought and paid for, outcomes whether it be manmade global warming "research" or "studies" showing the aquarium trade is causing fish and coral extinctions...

Environmentalism was legitimate and sincere when it relied on the scientific method, as in repeatable, testable, and constantly questioning all premises type work, to show how things can be actually be done to reduce actual pollution...

But now the environmental movement's radical departure from science, and scientific method, into the catch all political-regious faith based environmental movements undid its credibility.

Al Gore said we'd all be dead in the mid 2000's. Whatever happened there??

Even Michael Moore, although still praying to global warming god because of marxist end game it offers, has come around to recognizing the lack of any science in any purported solutions.



The bans on aquarium trade and green energy mandates are based on the same bogus science. It's poltical crap is what it is. Maybe with good intentions but it's still crap science.

With acceptance of junk political science as fact, every industry must now play survival of the political fittest, nothing to do with science at all. The industries that can bribe scientists, researchers, politicians, and propagandize the most effectively--will surivive. Those that cant--wont.

I have firsthand experience in this in the wood stove industry. My family has run a wood stove store for 50 years. Now, the most sustainable source of heat has been banned basically out existence (actually just to canada largely) for what? The answer is NOTHING. Based on what. Garbage science and make work government jobs destroying sound jobs and environmentally friendly industry.

I went to law school to try to work with these wackos, find a middle ground and dropped environmental law because the movement is nuts. I mean legitimately nuts. There is no middle ground.

And im all for environmental protection. Been a spey fisherman for steelhead and an alaskan fly fishing guide for years.

But, trust fund baby urban environmentalist law students, the same types litigating hawaii bans, who couldn't tell the difference between an alder and an oak and who have downed the environmental-religion-kool-aid to a point of no return, and who have spend more time on an iphone in an apartment in pick-your-favorite-city than the woods, the ocean, or on or in the water, and their ivory tower tenored professors utterly disconnected from the real world, living in acedemic marxist-group-think-bubbles (with 80% pay every four years on sabbatical and guaranteed government loans they never have to service paying their salaries) literally believe the law must mandate zero pollution within our lifetimes. And if you point out how that would end society, all business, their precious iphones, and destroy all economic resources available to protect the environment--they go back to quoting their disciples Karl Marx, Al Gore, amd Ruth Bater Gingberg like of any of those people had any clue about anything.

What i am saying is that whether the aquarium hobby or any industry related to the environment in any way survives enviro-religous attacks--based on junk science--is now solely dependent on lobbying and political capital. Science is now bought and paid for, most money coming from one source, i.e., govt, and the scientific method or critical thinking or actual problem solving has nothing to do with it.

Notice how basically no scientists openly criticizes the bogus scientific method used to attack the aquarium hobby-- the same as basically none openly criticize the same global warming junk science. Criticizing either would be professional suicide and they'd never get govt funding or published again.... so much for scientific method and challenging dogma.

Wake up reefers... attack the premise... attack all junk science... ESPECIALLY the biggest offender--that is anything purporting to support anthropogenic global warming--or this hobby and every industry without enormous political capital is on the nutjob-environmental-religion chopping block... i have firsthand experience, learn vicariously or lose your hobby...

 

[Tuffyyyyy]

ORA and Biota get $100 for a clownfish.

I think we're getting too off topic but they're $20 on liveaquaria

Captive-Bred Ocellaris Clownfish: Saltwater Aquarium Fish

 

[Willis19]

Captive-bred and aquacultured coral is the way!

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Captive-bred and aquacultured coral is the way!

Environmental zealots will (are) advocate banning possession to (supposedly) prevent a black market trade. They will (and are) advocating to ban having animals in fish tanks as not humane. They adovocate giving animals and trees rights to sue humans in court (with these nuts representing the animals and trees).

God knows what else they will come up with in the future.

That has been their MO on basically all critters they claim to protect.

There is no end to what they want to ban and control. The goal of these people is not reasonably protecting the environment. They are dedicated Malthusians and even passively supporting them is huge mistake. They will continue keep change their goals.

Not actively and fiercely fighting these people every step of the way is a huge mistake; if reefers do not, we will lose your hobby regardless of aqua culturing.

Understand the goal of them is to give animals the right to sue humans in court. Literally. If you think the reef aquarium hobby can survive in a world of theirs if they get their way--you are sadly mistaken.

Groundbreaking Lawsuit Argues Animals Have the Right to Sue Their Abusers in Court - Animal Legal Defense Fund (aldf.org)

They live in a sick fantasy world that more and more resembles "1984" where people are bossed around like ants because a few autocrats "know better". My family business of 50 years has been crushed for absolutely no reason. Federal agents literally come in our wood stove store, located in the middle of nowhere, and tell us we can't burn or sell certain woodstoves.

If reefers do not fight this now, there will be a day reef tanks are gone. Those who have them will face criminal charges.

Wake up if you do not understand the true end goal. Hawaii bans are just minor step to much larger goal.

I am licensed attorney, that can practice in the US Supreme Court. I am not kidding with anything that i am saying...