Deep Sand Bed

[Marcom12]

Nature and bacteria have not changed in 15 year, so what you see from Dr. Ron should be good still.

DSBs are in no way bad on their own. They can get bad after 5-10 years if reefers do not do their maintenance. This is a reefer problem, not a sand problem.

Sand from the ocean is phoshate free. Sand will bind an incredible amount of phosphate from the water column if allowed to rise. There is a lot of sand in the tank. This amount of sand can keep on binding phosphate and mask/hide bad maintenance from a reefer for quite some time. Once the sand gets pretty full, then the phosphate in the tank will rise. You will see posts about "time bombs" or "leeching phosphate," but both of these are inaccurate... what happened in that the reefer was doing a poor job (mostly that they did not know about) and the sand is unable to cover for them anymore.

How do you keep your sandbed going strong? First, get some cirtters... I like cucumbers and conchs to keep the top layer clean. Do not get any of these until you have some stuff in the sand for them to eat - wait 8-12 months. Reeftopia has both that are long lived and effective. Second, starting on about year four, I would vacuum 25% of it every 3 to 6 months to get the detritus out - while detritus is mostly benign of N and P, it can gum up the works. Third, get a good sand - I like the mixed grade one that MarcoRocks sells (I do not like their rock, but I like their sand). Fourth, keep your phosphate below .1 in the tank by changing water, skimming very heavy and having a fuge - use GFO if you need to. Keeping the P at this level will keep the aragonite from filling up with phosphate - which it binds to "equilibrium" with the water (phosphate rises and the sand binds more, lower the water level and it will release some).

The only thing that I have modified over the years from what Dr. Ron has said is that I have found that about 3" gets you all of the same benefits of complete nitrate elimination (once established) and also will support all of the same critters.

Understanding the relationship with aragonite binding to phosphate is key to having any successful reef, but even more paramount if using a good amount of sand.

I get that bacteria haven't changed [emoji16] but some used to use plemums... Then they don't recommend them anymore. I assume more data became available and the beliefs changed.. just wondered if anything like that has happened...

I'm still not positive on sand size .... And I thought I saw somewhere that Marcorock is not selling the sand anymore? I'll go look...

 

[Marcom12]

Looks like they have sand still.... But description says "medium to coarse grain"? I didn't think coarse was good?

 

[jda]

I think that most plenums disappeared when people figured out that you can denitrify just as well without them.

 

[Marcom12]

I think that most plenums disappeared when people figured out that you can denitrify just as well without them.

Yes, my point was sometime more data surfaces and what used to be gospel is now not. That's all. And it seems hard to find much on DSB that's recent.

 

[jda]

I feel you. It is kind like cooking rock. What was good a decade ago is still good, so not much new to type.

People get mad when I say this, but some of it is just this current generation of reefers who don't understand as much of how a tank works. If there is not a BRS video on it or a way to monitor it with an Apex, then they have no idea how stuff functions. The people that know are either kicking butt and keep to themselves since they don't need much, or have a smaller presence on the boards.

In all honesty, nearly everything that was good when you did this before is still good. There are additional things that you might want to add on, but if you ran a tank today the exact same way that you ran it before, then you can be super successful. The only thing that I have added in the last decade is a Tunze ATO, and I waited years and years before I trusted them... still 3 inch sand bed, lots of real ocean live rock, heavy skimming, CaRx, no controller, Metal Halides, Tunze flow pumps. I would not trade this kind of success or ease for anything else.

 

[Marcom12]

I feel you. It is kind like cooking rock. What was good a decade ago is still good, so not much new to type.

People get mad when I say this, but some of it is just this current generation of reefers who don't understand as much of how a tank works. If there is not a BRS video on it or a way to monitor it with an Apex, then they have no idea how stuff functions. The people that know are either kicking *** and keep to themselves since they don't need much, or have a smaller presence on the boards.

In all honesty, nearly everything that was good when you did this before is still good. There are additional things that you might want to add on, but if you ran a tank today the exact same way that you ran it before, then you can be super successful. The only thing that I have added in the last decade is a Tunze ATO, and I waited years and years before I trusted them... still 3 inch sand bed, lots of real ocean live rock, heavy skimming, CaRx, no controller, Metal Halides, Tunze flow pumps. I would not trade this kind of success or ease for anything else.

Excellent :) thank you [emoji16]

 

[Subsea]

OK.... I am going to get most people saying not to do it..... and i understand why. Buttttttt..... There are alot of reasons i find it desirable....

For one... I'd like the "complete ecosystem".... I'd find it fascinating to have all the little critters in my sand bed and think it seems more natural.

I have read that it accomplishes alot of the things we try to do with "unnatural" things like skimmers and the like.

I find this hobby as exactly that.... a hobby. Which to me means interacting with my tank... alot.

I find bare bottom tanks to be un-appealing and un-natural... I completely understand the reasoning behind it. Butttttt... i dont want a coral tank.... or a fish tank..... I want a Saltwater tank.... a piece of the ocean.... a Complete Ecosystem in my glass box.... or at least as close as i can get to it...

With this said...... I find it very difficult to find easily accessible information on creating a DSB and Maintaining it properly....

I'd love to find out more information on it. or interact with people who use one. Even if i ultimately decide not to go with it for reasons unknown to me at this time.. I'd like to learn.

I just disassembled a 25 year old dsb with a Jaubert Plenum and modified it to a reverse flow undergravel filter.

Why do you want a dsb? IMO, anything deeper than 2” is unnecessary and potentially dangerous.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/2...p-with-30g-ecosystem-mud-macro.421526/page-11

 

[Frogger]

I think that most plenums disappeared when people figured out that you can denitrify just as well without them.

Yes but back in 2001 when I set mine up plenums were the rage and it cannot be removed now.
Jaubert told me at Macna this year that his first plenum was because he had shut the undergravel filter down and just left it in his sand bed when he did his first experiments. Everyone just assumed that the space under his under-gravel filter was part of the reason it worked at de-nitrifying.

 

[Marcom12]

I just disassembled a 25 year old dsb with a Jaubert Plenum and modified it to a reverse flow undergravel filter.

Why do you want a dsb? IMO, anything deeper than 2” is unnecessary and potentially dangerous.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/2...p-with-30g-ecosystem-mud-macro.421526/page-11

Not sure what else to add to my original post on why I want one?

 

[Marcom12]

Yes but back in 2001 when I set mine up plenums were the rage and it cannot be removed now.
Jaubert told me at Macna this year that his first plenum was because he had shut the undergravel filter down and just left it in his sand bed when he did his first experiments. Everyone just assumed that the space under his under-gravel filter was part of the reason it worked at de-nitrifying.

And that was kinda my point in asking if DSB mentality has changed or improved or whatever. Considering most stuff I find seems quite old.

 

[Subsea]

Not sure what else to add to my original post on why I want one?

Do you only want people to agree with your thoughts or do you want real world experience with someone that maintained a dsb for 25 years.

Everything you said in first post can be done with a 2” sandbed. What do you expect to achieve with 6” or more of substrate, that can’t be done with 2”, because with increased sandbed depth comes the very real danger of a sandbed crashing.

 

[Marcom12]

Do you only want people to agree with your thoughts or do you want real world experience with someone that maintained a dsb for 25 years.

Everything you said in first post can be done with a 2” sandbed. What do you expect to achieve with 6” or more of substrate, that can’t be done with 2”, because with increased sandbed depth comes the very real danger of a sandbed crashing.

I came seeking information... I don't know enough about DSB vs. shallow sand beds.....

I don't want anyone to agree with my thoughts for the simple fact that I don't know my thoughts yet... Was the purpose of the thread.


I guess I'll try to elaborate on my reasons for thinking I might want one.

I like the look of thicker sand... Simply for the fact of seeing the cross section of the sand bed and the critters.

I also have read a few places that a dab properly maintained is a good thing in your tank.

I don't like a bare bottom look... Some do, I don't...

If I can accomplish the same thing with 5" sand bed as with a 2" sand bed then I'd question why anyone would do a thicker one. As I've said I don't know enough about the differences yet to tell you the scientific reasons but the general idea has me interested and I'd like to learn and then make an informed decision.

I hope I have clarified?

 

[Marcom12]

I could say some things like nitrification that happens at deeper levels but I don't know enough YET to know if I'm talking out my behind yet.... As stated in first post I was hoping to find some easily accessible info, and possibly newer information than what I had found on my own.

 

[Subsea]

So that you can know enough to ask specific questions please read some of this thread.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/2...m-on-top-with-30g-ecosystem-mud-macro.421526/
The tank has seen little change in 25 years. Jaubert Plenum was designed to use facultative bacteria in a low oxygen environment to perform denitrification biochemistry. Substrate was 6” deep with false bottom making a Plenum under substrate. Plenum performed well until the introduction of Melanarious Wrasse to control Red Planaria, which unknown to me eliminated my detrivore crew. With a 6” dsb with 25 years of detritus, I made the major decision to vacum sandbed down to < 2”.
After removing several hundred pounds of substrate while syphoning out over 500G of water over a two week time period, I now have a thriving mixed garden with ornamental sponges and ornamental macro along with numerous other filter feeders including flame scallops and numerous fans & feathers that I have no clue to the name, but I consider it a healthy bioindicator.

PS. I will be happy to discuss dsb & reefing on your or my thread.

 

[Subsea]

Nature and bacteria have not changed in 15 year, so what you see from Dr. Ron should be good still.

DSBs are in no way bad on their own. They can get bad after 5-10 years if reefers do not do their maintenance. This is a reefer problem, not a sand problem.

Sand from the ocean is phoshate free. Sand will bind an incredible amount of phosphate from the water column if allowed to rise. There is a lot of sand in the tank. This amount of sand can keep on binding phosphate and mask/hide bad maintenance from a reefer for quite some time. Once the sand gets pretty full, then the phosphate in the tank will rise. You will see posts about "time bombs" or "leeching phosphate," but both of these are inaccurate... what happened in that the reefer was doing a poor job (mostly that they did not know about) and the sand is unable to cover for them anymore.

How do you keep your sandbed going strong? First, get some cirtters... I like cucumbers and conchs to keep the top layer clean. Do not get any of these until you have some stuff in the sand for them to eat - wait 8-12 months. Reeftopia has both that are long lived and effective. Second, starting on about year four, I would vacuum 25% of it every 3 to 6 months to get the detritus out - while detritus is mostly benign of N and P, it can gum up the works. Third, get a good sand - I like the mixed grade one that MarcoRocks sells (I do not like their rock, but I like their sand). Fourth, keep your phosphate below .1 in the tank by changing water, skimming very heavy and having a fuge - use GFO if you need to. Keeping the P at this level will keep the aragonite from filling up with phosphate - which it binds to "equilibrium" with the water (phosphate rises and the sand binds more, lower the water level and it will release some).

The only thing that I have modified over the years from what Dr. Ron has said is that I have found that about 3" gets you all of the same benefits of complete nitrate elimination (once established) and also will support all of the same critters.

Understanding the relationship with aragonite binding to phosphate is key to having any successful reef, but even more paramount if using a good amount of sand.

Great post.

I have found that as my reef tank matures there is no need for denitrification chemistry. Therefore no need for a dsb which when neglected will crash. I prefer to design out anaerobic chemisty from my systems. All the critters in a 6” sandbed can be maintained in a 2” bed. To ensure no anaerobic chemistry, I installed a reverse flow up through the sandbed.

As a minimalist reefkeeper of 48 years, I find that works best for me.

 

[jda]

Anything that is neglected will crash... I will not run a tank without a 3 inch sandbed, but I do my job as a responsible keeper.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I find bare bottom tanks to be un-appealing and un-natural...

My bare bottom had coralline algae grow completely over it. Whats unnatural about that?

 

[Subsea]

My bare bottom had coralline algae grow completely over it. Whats unnatural about that?

A pink bare bottom is a sight for sore eyes. I dare not say more.

I could say some things like nitrification that happens at deeper levels but I don't know enough YET to know if I'm talking out my behind yet.... As stated in first post I was hoping to find some easily accessible info, and possibly newer information than what I had found on my own.

My computer skills are lacking. I tried to erase the humor @Scrubber_steve expense.

As jda & others have pointed out, nothing has changed as to how dsb work. All substrate in Aquarium require maintenance. Sandbed janitors are mandatory but the reefkeeper is the ultimate janitor. All sandbeds, shallow or deep, should be lightly gravel vacuumed as required.

However, since those days we have learned so much more. In a mature reef tank, the living biomass will become your biofilter. In my tanks, I feed heavy and still add ammonia to boost nitrogen consumption. Nutrient export is accomplished by fragging and selling coral. When required, I gravel vac sand. So, for me, denitrification in low oxygen areas of dsb is of no value. For anybody that does algae filtration, denitrification is of no value either. Coral & algae consume nitrogen & phosphorous in about the same ratio of 30:1. Some fast growing Caulerpa has a much higher nitrogen ratio and micro algae (phytoplankton) has a lower ratio of 16:1.

So welcome to reef chemistry 201.

 

[Marcom12]

So welcome to reef chemistry 201.

I welcome learning about reef chemistry. It's what I hoped for starting the post... It may take me a bit to grasp it all but I am trying to soak it in.

 

[Marcom12]

My bare bottom had coralline algae grow completely over it. Whats unnatural about that?

The coralline is not unnatural... I just can't find anywhere where the bottom of the ocean is just coralline. But that's just what's appealing to me.