Delicate / Difficult Wrasse

[Earl Karl]

They never do well because they thrash in the bag "trying to dig". Apparently a wholesaler friend of mine put a camera with night vision in the shipping box to record the wrasse in the bag while it was getting shipped to another friend of his 2 states away. This was done on with an Anampses species.

I didn't see footage, but I was told the wrasse was constantly torpedoing itself to the bottom of the bag trying to dig. When it arrived, it was on its side, breathing heavy with a severely damaged mouth. It unfortunately passed away. This also happens notoriously with Macropharyngodon and Psuedojuloides species. Which is why you don't see them as often, especially in LFS.

And unfortunately companies don't add sand to their bags due to added shipping weight cost and if actually done, they usually freak out when disturbed in the bag and jump out, causing more stress and damage. Plus, you can't really float bags with sand to temp. acclimate, which could be a nuisance to some people.

Also they are usually LOADED with intestinal worms and internal parasites. Praziquantel AND Metronidazole is a must with these wrasses.

 

[Lasse]

I think you hit the nail on the head with collection method, It has been happening forever , certain fish you just never gonna catch without the cyanide , they don't like to admit it but all the collectors do it for "those" fish then people wonder why did my fish die in a day ect, copperbands are notorious for this. They just wont admit they cannot catch one without "tools" then we all go nuts thinking we did something wrong.

Have you any evidences for this? Have you any evidence that copperbands are catch with help of cyanide? To use a fish species that is one of the most feed specialists of the world as an evidence of cyanide use because people do not manage to take care of them and the easily die is rather ridiculous IMO

@griff500 How deep is your sand bed where this example sleep? When at least my cannary wrasses got to bed - it is not a gently digging - rather a dive from 10 meters - see the end of the video




Many wrasse species is very nervous in the beginning and often overreact in the beginning - there have been examples of escape that have been stopped of a rock or a glass window.

How did you introduce this example - did you do any chemical prophylactic treatment, did you have it in a QT - with or without sand.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[pcon]

They never do well because they thrash in the bag "trying to dig". Apparently a wholesaler friend of mine put a camera with night vision in the shipping box to record the wrasse in the bag while it was getting shipped to another friend of his 2 states away. This was done on with an Anampses species.

And unfortunately companies don't add sand to their bags due to added shipping weight cost and if actually done, they usually freak out when disturbed in the bag and jump out, causing more stress and damage. Plus, you can't really float bags with sand to temp. acclimate, which could be a nuisance to some people.

I would be concerned that the sand shifting in transit or clouding the water could cause more harm to the fish than the thrashing in the bag, but this is an interesting consideration. With the costs of some these fish being in the 4 figures the additional cost of sand in the bag would be negligible. I am curious if people like @Humblefish have considered or tried this in shipping these more sensitive sand burrowing wrasses.

 

[Earl Karl]

I would be concerned that the sand shifting in transit or clouding the water could cause more harm to the fish than the thrashing in the bag, but this is an interesting consideration. With the costs of some these fish being in the 4 figures the additional cost of sand in the bag would be negligible. I am curious if people like @Humblefish have considered or tried this in shipping these more sensitive sand burrowing wrasses.

Personally, I think the best way would be to ship them in very BIG bags. I was gonna say very small bags as it would prevent high velocity thrashing, but ammonia and oxygen would be an issue. But I'm not sure what is the best case scenario for these wrasses. It is still a mystery.

They are pretty bulletproof once established, but man, shipping takes a HUGE toll on them. I have 100% success picking my wrasses up locally than online. Even my Psuedojuloides Polynesica and Splendens that I picked up from a wholesaler was in INCREDIBLY rough shape (cuts and scabs everywhere with chunks of fins missing) and it turned out to be the hardiest fish in my tank. Unfortunately, the wholesaler also lost out on plenty of other pencil wrasse they brought in from transshipping.

 

[pcon]

One of my friends suggested that some Australian shippers are now shipping them and lennardi in plastic bins with sand. Trying to find a source for it.

 

[mattzang]

They never do well because they thrash in the bag "trying to dig". Apparently a wholesaler friend of mine put a camera with night vision in the shipping box to record the wrasse in the bag while it was getting shipped to another friend of his 2 states away. This was done on with an Anampses species.

I didn't see footage, but I was told the wrasse was constantly torpedoing itself to the bottom of the bag trying to dig. When it arrived, it was on its side, breathing heavy with a severely damaged mouth. It unfortunately passed away. This also happens notoriously with Macropharyngodon and Psuedojuloides species. Which is why you don't see them as often, especially in LFS.

And unfortunately companies don't add sand to their bags due to added shipping weight cost and if actually done, they usually freak out when disturbed in the bag and jump out, causing more stress and damage. Plus, you can't really float bags with sand to temp. acclimate, which could be a nuisance to some people.

Also they are usually LOADED with intestinal worms and internal parasites. Praziquantel AND Metronidazole is a must with these wrasses.

to add to this, i recently tried a china wrasse Anampses neoguinaicus from an lfs that was eating pellets. as i was pulling out of the parking lot, i decided i'd get another fish that was in there so i went back. it was a hot day so i grabbed the bag with the china wrasse in it to take it inside with me and once i got in there i realized the wrasse had bitten or somehow ripped open a piece of the bag to where it was leaking. lfs owner had to triple bag it, but one must wonder how freaked out the fish was

i ended up having to euthanize the wrasse because it just would not eat anything, sadly. it didn't seem like it had a mouth injury, but hard to really tell

seems to me the anampses wrasses are just really difficult, it's probably pretty hit or miss whether you get one that eats or doesn't. my experience with the wrasse just not eating doesn't seem to be overly rare judging by this site. the difference between the china wrasse and the femininus wrasse are probably i can go buy another china wrasse for $40 and give it another whirl (if i like torturing myself) whereas i'm guesstimating people aren't going to keep dropping $1,000 on feminine wrasses until they strike gold

 

[Earl Karl]

Mouth injuries are pretty common in the more delicate wrasses and butterflyfish. I believe they have some sores in the oral cavity that makes it painful to eat or something like that. When introduced in my QT, my CBB would constantly eat then spit out its food and shake its head. Gave it some time, it now gobbled up food without spitting it back out.

One time I had lacerations in my esophagus (I don't remember how) and a stomach flu at the same time and that prevent me from eating and drinking anything for three days and I was puking blood. They had to pump me with an IV to keep me hydrated as I was super pale. Then those lacerations healed up and I was able to eat again. I believe this was when I was like 13-14.
I wonder if the wrasses and butterflys face something similar, maybe some chemical or shipping damage?

 

[Bob Weigant]

I'll keep it simple - high price , low chance of survival and Im no longer interested in a particular fish. As much as I love wrasses I may try 1 or 2 that are difficult but I cant keep them for whatever reason I move on. No sense in going 3 , 4 , 5 times with the same results. Having said that Im on my 3 tamarin and I almost didn't buy it for my track record with them. However this one is going on 2 months and looking better and better everyday.

 

[griff500]

@griff500 How deep is your sand bed where this example sleep? When at least my cannary wrasses got to bed - it is not a gently digging - rather a dive from 10 meters - see the end of the video

Many wrasse species is very nervous in the beginning and often overreact in the beginning - there have been examples of escape that have been stopped of a rock or a glass window.

How did you introduce this example - did you do any chemical prophylactic treatment, did you have it in a QT - with or without sand.

Sincerely Lasse

Hi @Lasse

I did not QT or use a treatment - I am in two minds about QT. The sand in parts is a good couple of inches deep, in other parts there is little. Like many tanks, sand gets moved around.

The Femininus was in good condition externally. It had been eating very well from day one. Perhaps it was eating well but due to internal parasites was not getting benefit from the food. Mysis, pellets (Hikari S), Mastick. Ten days doing apparently well and coming out of the sand later each day, then suddenly dead. I read many stories like this. I have had Anampses before and I currently have a Black Tail and Yellow Tail that appear to be doing fine. The Femininus followed their example and was eating immediately. No bullying.

Obviously mine is not an isolated example but almost appears to be the usual story and good results seem to be the exception.

 

[Tamberav]

It would be cool if fish like this could be geo tagged to there collection spot of each fish. Then maybe how it was collected with initials of the person who did it and date.

Fish name
Hand Net caught vs Dredged
Latitude/longitude
Date
Intitials

The reason for initials is just out of curiosity if certain divers have a higher survival or if certain areas have a higher survival or just to see the exact temp/range that exact fish is coming from. Date to see how long has it been in transit and such.

Just more data in general can't be a bad thing.

 

[Earl Karl]

Hi @Lasse

I did not QT or use a treatment - I am in two minds about QT. The sand in parts is a good couple of inches deep, in other parts there is little. Like many tanks, sand gets moved around.

The Femininus was in good condition externally. It had been eating very well from day one. Perhaps it was eating well but due to internal parasites was not getting benefit from the food. Mysis, pellets (Hikari S), Mastick. Ten days doing apparently well and coming out of the sand later each day, then suddenly dead. I read many stories like this. I have had Anampses before and I currently have a Black Tail and Yellow Tail that appear to be doing fine. The Femininus followed their example and was eating immediately. No bullying.

Obviously mine is not an isolated example but almost appears to be the usual story and good results seem to be the exception.

If you didn't QT and didn't feed medicated foods, it was definitely the intestinal parasites that finished it off. Wrasses usually run rampant with them.

Not to be rude, but just a bit more research and it would probably be still alive.

 

[griff500]

One of my friends suggested that some Australian shippers are now shipping them and lennardi in plastic bins with sand. Trying to find a source for it.

I had read something similar.

 

[griff500]

If you didn't QT and didn't feed medicated foods, it was definitely the intestinal parasites that finished it off. Wrasses usually run rampant with them.

Not to be rude, but just a bit more research and it would probably be still alive.

Yet I have other Anampses that are doing great without doing QT. To say it would probably still be alive and it was 'definitely' intestinal parasites is a bit of a leap and especially when there are people saying the chance of survival even with QT is between 10% and 20%.

I presume you have a good track record with these fish?

 

[mattzang]

i wonder if people in australia fare better with them? could be the flying across an ocean thing

 

[griff500]

i wonder if people in australia fare better with them? could be the flying across an ocean thing

I have read posts on Australian forums describing them as fairly easy to keep.

 

[griff500]

I have to say that some of these posts really wind me up. We are talking about fish that are renowned for being difficult and have low chances of success, with Evolved saying that he has not got another one to 'stick' yet, and yet I get people telling me that if I had done some research then it would probably still be alive. That means the majority of these fish would live if people did research, yet they have a low incidence of survival. Presumably the people posting this stuff have great success with these fish and it's everybody else that is not having success.

Amazing.

 

[Earl Karl]

Yet I have other Anampses that are doing great without doing QT. To say it would probably still be alive is a bit of a leap and especially when there are people saying the chance of survival even with QT is between 10% and 20%.

That 10% - 20% is from rebounding from shipping damage. Internal parasites/worms is a WHOLE nother story. Those 2 anampses could very well not have internal parasites. Which is why they do well in your tank.

That's why I said probably. Not most likely, not absloutely, just probably. But the fact it died from internal parasites/worms, and I know this is because you at least kept it over a week, it was eating healthy, and then it suddenly died, that could have been prevented with a bit of research. Dying from other causes out of your control is a different story.

 

[griff500]

That 10% - 20% is from rebounding from shipping damage. Internal parasites/worms is a WHOLE nother story. Those 2 anampses could very well not have internal parasites. Which is why they do well in your tank.

That's why I said probably. Not most likely, not absloutely, just probably. But the fact it died from internal parasites/worms, and I know this is because you at least kept it over a week and then it suddenly died, that could have been prevented with a bit of research. Dying from other causes out of your control is a different story.

You stated that internal parasites 'definitely' finished the fish off and you have no way whatsoever to know that beyond doubt. You might be correct, but to state 'definitely' is just ridiculous. You are making rather large leaps with your conclusions about the other Anampses in my tank. You have no idea what other conditions might exist in my tank or anything about the fish. Yet with all of this you know beyond any doubt why it died and apparently if I had done some research then such research would have meant that a Femininus Wrasse (a notoriously tricky fish) would have probably survived.

So what is the secret to your success with this fish? How long have you had yours?

 

[Earl Karl]

I used have a Twistii Anampses, had it for 3 years until I had to sell it since I was moving to college. Only anampses I was able to get locally. I don't mess with these wrasses when it comes to shipping. Wholesalers told me it's not worth getting them online, I trust them since I have seen dozens of them dead at shipment unboxings. I haven't been able to find another one locally that was healthy. But I do have Macropharyngodon and Psuedojuloides species, which do have the same issues.

I say definitely because if it was because shipping damage, it would be hiding in the sand for a long time to recover from the damages. If it was going to die, it would swim out of the sand and just hyperventilate to death. Yours was out and happy and eating. For over a week. Then it suddenly died. That's why I said definitely it was internal parasites.

 

[Earl Karl]

There is no secret, once established and dewormed, they're pretty much like other hardy wrasses. I guess my secret would be buy them locally as you can observe them, QT or at least deworm them, and you're done. The biggest obstacle is finding one that isn't damaged from shipping. I only kept one for so long, so maybe I do not have much experience.

But there is a reason why Australians don't have a hard time keeping them.