Designer or Inbred? How do you pronounce it?

How do you pronounce it?

  • Designer Fish

    Votes: 233 55.0%
  • Inbred Fish

    Votes: 155 36.6%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 36 8.5%

  • Total voters
    424

revhtree

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How do you pronounce it?

It’s always truly amazing to see advancements in this hobby. I recently came across an article about how the industry is pushing the boundaries with captive bred fish. In terms of fish breeding most of us are familiar with breeding clowns, dragonets, banggai cardinals, gobies etc. But the one true milestone is breeding tangs.

If the past is any indication it will only be a matter of time before these advancements are passed onto hobbyist. We will unlock the proper schedule to successfully breed tangs in our own homes. Before we know it, we will start to see crossbred species with never before seen color combinations that will no doubt command a huge demand by hobbyists. In turn, that will encourage many folks to transform their basement or guest rooms into a tang breeding centers. It begs the question, just because we can, should we?

Clown fish are a great example of this phenomenon. Early hobbyists were only given the choice between the traditional orange and white ocellaris or percula. Now a days, breeders and hobbyists alike are able to achieve certain looks by selectively breeding out particular traits so that we can have that beautiful designer fish. However, there’s a flipside to this coin by selectively breeding in certain positive traits you also breed in those “not so good” traits. Fish life expectancy drops, they’re more prone to disease, they don’t act like traditional clowns and of course the obvious ones like genetic defects. As that happened the philosophical question becomes how far is too far? Have we already crossed that line?

1. With all that said, do you pronounce it “Designer clown” or “Inbred clown”? Why do say so?

Follow up question:

2. Should captive bred tangs follow the same selective breeding process or should we leave it to the professionals?


Thanks again to @Sisterlimonpot for the QOTD!
clowns.jpg
 

JoshH

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How do you pronounce it?

It’s always truly amazing to see advancements in this hobby. I recently came across an article about how the industry is pushing the boundaries with captive bred fish. In terms of fish breeding most of us are familiar with breeding clowns, dragonets, banggai cardinals, gobies etc. But the one true milestone is breeding tangs.

If the past is any indication it will only be a matter of time before these advancements are passed onto hobbyist. We will unlock the proper schedule to successfully breed tangs in our own homes. Before we know it, we will start to see crossbred species with never before seen color combinations that will no doubt command a huge demand by hobbyists. In turn, that will encourage many folks to transform their basement or guest rooms into a tang breeding centers. It begs the question, just because we can, should we?

Clown fish are a great example of this phenomenon. Early hobbyists were only given the choice between the traditional orange and white ocellaris or percula. Now a days, breeders and hobbyists alike are able to achieve certain looks by selectively breeding out particular traits so that we can have that beautiful designer fish. However, there’s a flipside to this coin by selectively breeding in certain positive traits you also breed in those “not so good” traits. Fish life expectancy drops, they’re more prone to disease, they don’t act like traditional clowns and of course the obvious ones like genetic defects. As that happened the philosophical question becomes how far is too far? Have we already crossed that line?

1. With all that said, do you pronounce it “Designer clown” or “Inbred clown”? Why do say so?

Follow up question:

2. Should captive bred tangs follow the same selective breeding process or should we leave it to the professionals?


Thanks again to @Sisterlimonpot for the QOTD!
clowns.jpg

Great question of the day, I hope you don't open a can of worms like I did in this thread targeting more specifically a certain clown type that had been introduced last year...

 

725196

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1. With all that said, do you pronounce it “Designer clown” or “Inbred clown”? Why do say so?

Inbred, but to each their own.

2. Should captive bred tangs follow the same selective breeding process or should we leave it to the professionals?

I say leave it to nature, I don't care for the "new breeds" but don't complain as long as I ca get the natural ones too. I do like aquacultured fish, but let them be as they are in nature.
 

CMMorgan

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How do you pronounce it?

It’s always truly amazing to see advancements in this hobby. I recently came across an article about how the industry is pushing the boundaries with captive bred fish. In terms of fish breeding most of us are familiar with breeding clowns, dragonets, banggai cardinals, gobies etc. But the one true milestone is breeding tangs.

If the past is any indication it will only be a matter of time before these advancements are passed onto hobbyist. We will unlock the proper schedule to successfully breed tangs in our own homes. Before we know it, we will start to see crossbred species with never before seen color combinations that will no doubt command a huge demand by hobbyists. In turn, that will encourage many folks to transform their basement or guest rooms into a tang breeding centers. It begs the question, just because we can, should we?

Clown fish are a great example of this phenomenon. Early hobbyists were only given the choice between the traditional orange and white ocellaris or percula. Now a days, breeders and hobbyists alike are able to achieve certain looks by selectively breeding out particular traits so that we can have that beautiful designer fish. However, there’s a flipside to this coin by selectively breeding in certain positive traits you also breed in those “not so good” traits. Fish life expectancy drops, they’re more prone to disease, they don’t act like traditional clowns and of course the obvious ones like genetic defects. As that happened the philosophical question becomes how far is too far? Have we already crossed that line?

1. With all that said, do you pronounce it “Designer clown” or “Inbred clown”? Why do say so?

Follow up question:

2. Should captive bred tangs follow the same selective breeding process or should we leave it to the professionals?


Thanks again to @Sisterlimonpot for the QOTD!
clowns.jpg
This says it all... we fall in love with the designer dogs but even the creator never envisioned what it would become. Not knocking doodles... I had one... he had my heart... he was a rescue. To see doodles selling for $3,000 a pop while those doodle mom's live in puppy mills is just not ok. The ensuing health issues from overbreeding is not ok.
I vote inbred - leave evolution to God and keep man out of it.
 

hart24601

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I voted for designer (although I don’t love the term) as they are breeding for various traits, while they do use inbreeding that term on it’s own doesn’t really imply the selective breeding process and seems to be more used with clownfish in particular as a disparaging term.

Should they do it with tangs? Sure, if I don’t like it I won’t buy them. At some point we might be limited to only captive bred fish, right or wrong. Clearly “designer fish” are popular and boost the captive breeding process and while some will say “just captive breed wild type” reality is designer will bring more money which bring more effort and if/when wild ban hits hopefully the breeding effort and knowledge will be more robust.
 

Pkunk35

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1) I say designer but mostly because of the severe negative connotation of "inbred" which I am not sure all of these clowns deserve as a name although I do not know much behind the scenes.

2) A license to breed fish? Honestly prob not a bad idea if most captive breeding were done by professionals for all animals as long as anyone is able to rightfully qualify and obtain the said license. There should not be a monopoly on life in any form.
 

andrewkw

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However, there’s a flipside to this coin by selectively breeding in certain positive traits you also breed in those “not so good” traits. Fish life expectancy drops, they’re more prone to disease, they don’t act like traditional clowns and of course the obvious ones like genetic defects. As that happened the philosophical question becomes how far is too far? Have we already crossed that line?

Are we sure life expectancy drops for the mutant clowns? I usually call them mutants. I have a naked who I've had more than 14 years so shes' probably about 15 now. At the time this was one of the most exotic varieties.

While none of the designer or inbred clowns beat the beauty of a wild caught true perc pair imo, I do like a lot of them. My first introduction to fish breeding has been with lightning maroons which as most people know is a naturally occurring variant BUT with only 1 wild fish all captive bred lightning maroons are somewhat inbred including both my parents who were actually purchased in different countries. (Canada, USA).

As for tangs I think we are probably still 10 years away from hobbyists breeding them to the point where they are going to experiment with hybrids or other variants. The fact they need such large and in particular tall tanks to spawn is probably going to be a limiting factor for home breeding.

Due to the cost of captive breeding it would not surprise me to eventually see some of what you are suggesting out of necessity. It seems like people or companies for that matter will breed profitable fish so they can finance less profitable projects. A lot of people won't pay the price for a captive bred mandarin that eats pellets because they will just buy a few wild ones until they get one that eats. Also there are a decent amount of people who think captive bred fish will be cheaper to buy when there is no possible way raising fish can be cheaper then importing wild caught fish that only need to be cared for for days instead of months or longer.
 

dbowman5

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i say va-ri-a-tion.
Inbreeding can compound genetic weaknesses by mating family members with those weaknesses, are they doing this? designer implies special and traceable by labeling. when i see a logo on the side of a fish or on its fin i will call it designer.
 

Miller535

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I do not think it is accurate to say that fish life expectancy drops, and they’re more prone to disease. While this can be true in some circumstances, some "designer fish" are just hybrids. In which case the opposite COULD be true. Just like how mixed breed dogs tend to have a longer life span and less health issues then pure breed dogs. I have a pair of Spotcinctus clowns that when they were introduced fell into this category. When in fact they are just a cross breed of the Pearl-Eye Clarki and the Red Sea Two Band.
 

UkiahTheTurtle

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I love my Frostbite ocellaris and I saved them from a life in a 2 gallon tank in my LFS
tempImagegkhghf.jpg
I would never trade my clowns for a "Natural one" the reason I say this Is at some point in time what we see as clownfish colors had to have been a mutation from a plainer fish.
 

KrisReef

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Either way isn't it just imitating "natural selection" to incidentally cross breed a fish and artificial selection to choose for traits that make the fish look different than the rest? Nature would have killed most of the "oddballs" while we debate if it's a "Designer" or a "Quasimoto."

Meddling can produce hybrid vigor and possibly improve bloodlines for captive reef living and maybe even reduce fishing pressure on wild stock? Either way, I call them all fish. I often like the looks of natural outliers but find "Designer Clownfish" to be irritating to look at. I wouldn't want others not to have them, just not for me, myself, and eye.

For a final arbiter, we could always ask the Emperor?
giphy.gif


Kind of fond of Koi myself and am aware of the inbred hypocrisy of my own positions. :)
 

SMSREEF

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There really has to be a word somewhere in the middle that doesn't carry the negative connotation of "Inbred", or the positive connotation of "Designer". Maybe "Selectively Bred" is what I would call it.

With that said, I have a Naked Oscellaris. He is one of my favorite fish personality wise. Very much a clown no matter what he looks like on the outside. I hope he has the same lifespan as @andrewkw 's.

Tank raised tangs will be great when they arrive. I would be happy with normal tangs, but would also be REALLY happy if they could breed ones that stay 3".
 

stylolvr

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I too am a fan of the natural variations but have an ignorant question about tank-bred clownfish from farms like ORA. For the "non-designer" captive-bred fish, are they mixing pedigrees to keep the gene pool fresh, or do they have a bunch of super breeder pairs that produce enough to sustain demand? If two fish from the same clutch pair up in an artificial environment, that is inbreeding also, correct? Not pointing fingers - I am genuinely curious about their process.

All that said, there may be a "designer" pair in my soon-to-be 20 cube because, well, the wife thinks they are really pretty!
 

Miller535

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There really has to be a word somewhere in the middle that doesn't carry the negative connotation of "Inbred", or the positive connotation of "Designer". Maybe "Selectively Bred" is what I would call it.

I agree with this.


For my own personal taste, what most people think of with these types of clowns are not my personal taste. I like the natural ones, and the hybrids.
 
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