Detritus in a reef tank

jason2459

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You guys are thinking your tanks are coral reefs. They lack the whole ocean and its dynamics. There is very little similar to a reef in a fish tank. Think bigger. Theres a lot more going on than just a coral reef in the sea, its all connected. Nothing comes in and nothing comes out. Fish tanks lack a lot of fuctions of the sea. The abyss is one but one example. There are many.

The animals you want to keep dont really live in a magrove swamp. If they did theyd die pretty quickly by sedimentation. Just condider that for a second, then think how your tank works.

You constantly put food in your tank. The ocean and coral reef doesnt have input. Its an ecosystem based on what's available, and thats why we have them. A coral reef exists on what very little is available, and they live in a nutrient dessert. What happens when you keep adding food to a tank? What would happen to the sea? The point is detrtus is okay if you can mimick the sea, but you cant. Eventually sandbeds get full of organics and your tank will become eutrophic, and no longer trophic. Imo

I believe I said we don't have the ocean in our glass cages.

Don't know why you think fish don't live around and in the mangrove forests. Or around tons of detritus. My favorite fishing is flats fishing on the bay side in the keys that is practically all algae and detritus. The mangroves provide food and shelter to all kinds of minnows and predators. Wading off shore by the docks to cast nets to get bait fish. Etc etc.

And I don't know why you believe all coral reefs are clean as a whistle. They just happen to have a good CUC and few top predators. When the balance is tipped (due to human's overfishing or polution) the difference is vert noticable. On top of that one of my favorite seasons was lobster season and diving down with a net in one hand and a tickle stick in the other. I stayed far away from those nice big reefs. As mentioned above the best places were the small brown patches amont the endless green feilds indicating small patches of corals. Some hundreds of years old indicated by the tremendous size of brain corals and gorgonians. Nothing prestiene about those places and fish galore.

Only reason typical surface levels have low nutrients isn't because of some sweeping away action but the diversity of life. At least much of it.

Oh, and the oceans certainly does have inputs. Many of them. Some good and some not good. But yes, I do believe our tanks need some kind of export. But detritus is the least of my worries to try and export.
 
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atoll

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You guys are thinking your tanks are coral reefs. They lack the whole ocean and its dynamics. There is very little similar to a reef in a fish tank. Think bigger. Theres a lot more going on than just a coral reef in the sea, its all connected. Nothing comes in and nothing comes out. Fish tanks lack a lot of fuctions of the sea. The abyss is one but one example. There are many.

The animals you want to keep dont really live in a magrove swamp. If they did theyd die pretty quickly by sedimentation. Just condider that for a second, then think how your tank works.

You constantly put food in your tank. The ocean and coral reef doesnt have input. Its an ecosystem based on what's available, and thats why we have them. A coral reef exists on what very little is available, and they live in a nutrient dessert. What happens when you keep adding food to a tank? What would happen to the sea? The point is detrtus is okay if you can mimick the sea, but you cant. Eventually sandbeds get full of organics and your tank will become eutrophic, and no longer trophic. Imo
I am glad you said IMO at the end of your post as there is so much wrong in it from the first sentence. IME.
My first sentence from my last post.
Quote "Nobody is suggesting our glass boxes are exactly like the reef of which there are many different types of reefs."
 

Paul B

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Cory of course that is true, we don't have the sea in our houses. But we can take the parts of the sea that are conducive of life and use them to our advantage. A coral reef is a desert that is true. A coral reef is also practically devoid of life compared to northern waters. That's why there are no great fisheries in the tropics. Almost all the food fish comes from the north where "detritus" and minerals come up from the deep parts of the sea and feed the billions of sardines, cod, tuna, mackerel and krill that fuels all those fish. If you take a glass of water from a tropical reef, you will see nothing in it. If I take a glass of water from the sea where I live in New York, or Canada, you will see all sorts of things swimming in there.
The fish in our tanks don't particularly want to live in a sea that is practically devoid of food, they were just designed to live in warmer temperatures and have to search for their food. But if you could adjust the internal temperature of say a copperband butterfly so it could live in cold water, it would thrive in northern waters and grow much faster than in the tropics. That is what I try to achieve in my tank. I give them the best of both worlds. My reef is loaded with tiny organisms that thrive in detritus. It is like that because I add mud and water from northern water to get that life.
If I turn off my pumps, I see thousands of creatures swimming all over the place. If I lift a rock, I will find amphipods. Those tiny organisms feed larger things which feed pods and the fry of all the fish spawning constantly and virtually all of my paired fish are spawning. Those fry won't grow to adulthood because of predation but become part of the food chain. I don't know how many fry this would be but being all my fish are spawning, that probably comes to millions of fry in my tank all the time that become food. Those fry live on the microscope life long enough to get eaten just like they do in the sea. I keep many small fish like pipefish, mandarins, ruby red dragonettes, clown gobies etc. Those fish find an abundance of food in my tank with little help from me and all of them are spawning which is food for other fish. So even though I don't have a real coral reef in my house, I still have a thriving eco system that manufactures it's own food, and eliminates or changes waste into nutrients that fuels this system.

I strongly feel that the biggest cause of tanks crashing and fish getting sick is the lack of live bacteria in our tanks and in the fishes food. I also feel our tanks are "much" to clean and "much" to much water is changed and "much" too much detritus is vacuumed out.
I clean out some detritus once a year, but I run a reverse undergravel filter which would distribute the detritus evenly through the gravel providing a cornucopia of various food for the millions of tube worms, bacteria, worms and pods. If we leave our tanks along longer, these things would develop along with the mulm on the back glass which is also the home to these organisms.

The only reason I clean out some detritus is because the UG filter needs occasional cleanings so the water can flow through it as the sea has typhoons to do that so I make my own.
I think the reason my fish never get sick, don't need to be quarantined, always spawn and die of old age is because of the things I mentioned.

. Eventually sandbeds get full of organics and your tank will become eutrophic, and no longer trophic. Imo

My reef has been running this way for 46 years, no problems with eutrophication yet. :D

Clingfish enjoying lunch on the mulm in the back of my tank.

 
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Nano sapiens

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What I believe is getting lost in translation is that some detritus is healthy for a reef tank system (or a natural reef), but too much of it can be a problem for this type of environment. There are warm sea areas, such as mangrove swamps, that contain a large amount of detritus, but only a small subset of the reef typical sessile organisms can tolerate the sediment in this type of environment. Fish love it, of course, and mangrove swamps are a nursery for many, many species.

One can maintain a healthy reef-type environment by simple management of detritus (key word 'management', not 'total elimination'). Without this active export, I wouldn't have been able to successfully keep a wide variety of sensitive reef coral in 10g of water (without chemical or mechanical filtration) for over 9 years.
 
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Matt Carden

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Cory of course that is true, we don't have the sea in our houses. But we can take the parts of the sea that are conducive of life and use them to our advantage. A coral reef is a desert that is true. A coral reef is also practically devoid of life compared to northern waters. That's why there are no great fisheries in the tropics. Almost all the food fish comes from the north where "detritus" and minerals come up from the deep parts of the sea and feed the billions of sardines, cod, tuna, mackerel and krill that fuels all those fish. If you take a glass of water from a tropical reef, you will see nothing in it. If I take a glass of water from the sea where I live in New York, or Canada, you will see all sorts of things swimming in there.
The fish in our tanks don't particularly want to live in a sea that is practically devoid of food, they were just designed to live in warmer temperatures and have to search for their food. But if you could adjust the internal temperature of say a copperband butterfly so it could live in cold water, it would thrive in northern waters and grow much faster than in the tropics. That is what I try to achieve in my tank. I give them the best of both worlds. My reef is loaded with tiny organisms that thrive in detritus. It is like that because I add mud and water from northern water to get that life.
If I turn off my pumps, I see thousands of creatures swimming all over the place. If I lift a rock, I will find amphipods. Those tiny organisms feed larger things which feed pods and the fry of all the fish spawning constantly and virtually all of my paired fish are spawning. Those fry won't grow to adulthood because of predation but become part of the food chain. I don't know how many fry this would be but being all my fish are spawning, that probably comes to millions of fry in my tank all the time that become food. Those fry live on the microscope life long enough to get eaten just like they do in the sea. I keep many small fish like pipefish, mandarins, ruby red dragonettes, clown gobies etc. Those fish find an abundance of food in my tank with little help from me and all of them are spawning which is food for other fish. So even though I don't have a real coral reef in my house, I still have a thriving eco system that manufactures it's own food, and eliminates or changes waste into nutrients that fuels this system.

I strongly feel that the biggest cause of tanks crashing and fish getting sick is the lack of live bacteria in our tanks and in the fishes food. I also feel our tanks are "much" to clean and "much" to much water is changed and "much" too much detritus is vacuumed out.
I clean out some detritus once a year, but I run a reverse undergravel filter which would distribute the detritus evenly through the gravel providing a cornucopia of various food for the millions of tube worms, bacteria, worms and pods. If we leave our tanks along longer, these things would develop along with the mulm on the back glass which is also the home to these organisms.

The only reason I clean out some detritus is because the UG filter needs occasional cleanings so the water can flow through it as the sea has typhoons to do that so I make my own.
I think the reason my fish never get sick, don't need to be quarantined, always spawn and die of old age is because of the things I mentioned.



My reef has been running this way for 46 years, no problems with eutrophication yet. :D

Clingfish enjoying lunch on the mulm in the back of my tank.

Hey @Paul B this post should be added to your thread with all the posts you don't want to forget.
 

brandon429

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the effects of detritus in a reef tank

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/nuvo-10-crash.630156/page-3#post-6282860

The key is having little dilution, so that eutrophication is amplified for inspection without having to wait 20 yrs. People who keep large tanks have it easy, they have dilution to offset all the stored up waste. But in a small tank, it’s consequence time


my opinion on cause of his tank decline: associated irritants associated with the dieoff that caused the shedding event all over that whole tank made an irritating water column

All the detritus was removed, let’s track outcome before final is set

*agreed above any normal reef does not have to be rip cleaned, we did it as interventional CPR but we also demonstrate detritus is serious business where you lack water volume to mask it. We want to show that you can force command any reef back into compliance and save your investment by being thorough, and the totality of all planning and execution in the thread revolved solely around detritus location and export. He risks a recycle if he cleans partially, we had to do it this way to be safe. not everyone would agree to rip clean that tank anyway / sees a different causative / but it’s pretty accepted even by skeptics that deep clean access is a loss risk/recycle risk and I’m offering proof that inert sand grains aren’t the risk, but the organics in mid decay between them. The proof is his tank doesn’t die and we removed solely the organic complement and put the rest back. We managed to break every 90s reef rule all in one post, w pics.


If you own a large tank detritus seems pretty neutral


If you own a small old tank, or take time to participate in small tank rehab, detritus export is required
you can either handle it in increments, or on the op table all at once
 
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Scott Campbell

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the effects of detritus in a reef tank

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/nuvo-10-crash.630156/page-3#post-6282860

The key is having little dilution, so that eutrophication is amplified for inspection without having to wait 20 yrs. People who keep large tanks have it easy, they have dilution to offset all the stored up waste. But in a small tank, it’s consequence time


my opinion on cause of his tank decline: associated irritants associated with the dieoff that caused the shedding event all over that whole tank made an irritating water column

All the detritus was removed, let’s track outcome before final is set

*agreed above any normal reef does not have to be rip cleaned, we did it as interventional CPR but we also demonstrate detritus is serious business where you lack water volume to mask it. We want to show that you can force command any reef back into compliance and save your investment by being thorough, and the totality of all planning and execution in the thread revolved solely around detritus location and export. He risks a recycle if he cleans partially, we had to do it this way to be safe. not everyone would agree to rip clean that tank anyway / sees a different causative / but it’s pretty accepted even by skeptics that deep clean access is a loss risk/recycle risk and I’m offering proof that inert sand grains aren’t the risk, but the organics in mid decay between them. The proof is his tank doesn’t die and we removed solely the organic complement and put the rest back. We managed to break every 90s reef rule all in one post, w pics.


If you own a large tank detritus seems pretty neutral


If you own a small old tank, or take time to participate in small tank rehab, detritus export is required
you can either handle it in increments, or on the op table all at once


Again - this concept of "dilution" you keep tossing out is nonsensical. A large tank can have a much higher bioload per gallon than a small tank. Tank size has nothing to do with how "diluted" the tank is. The difference between a large tank and a small or nano-sized tank is that a large tank affords more filtration options - like a refugium or a healthy colony of amphipods. A thriving population of microfauna is simply another means of filtration. And it is a particularly effective means of controlling detritus since detritus is a food source for microfauna. It is likely impossible to sustain a microfauna population in a flower vase sized aquarium. So that severely limits your filtration options to water changes and manual detritus removal. But that is a limit of flower vases - not "proof" that detritus must be manually removed.
 

brandon429

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But he specially remarks on the surviving microfauna, and my YouTube channel has videos of mine in the vase, scurrying. We have mas pods they’re not an issue

I was remarking moreso on how badly that rip clean might have gone if we viewed detritus as neutral or not the source of all tank loss during fill cleans / very impactful

Detritus caused his problem and we think removing it will make his tank turnaround. Tbd

I would also say that working in others peoples tanks vs my own at a ratio of 2000:1 and keeping each link handy for review forms a large basis of the claim as well.

It would be neat to see any other counter work being produced to support the other side...such as, hop in work threads and fix invasions/crashes by leaving all the waste in place. we get to see how easy/fast/long lasting that is with their updates etc, to compare outcomes.

The sand rinse thread is the largest thread I can find on any forum solely focusing on tank moves/bed swaps/ and detritus, and we've not one loss in about six years running by focusing in between the grains :)

where's all the counter work threads...ya'll doing moves, upgrades n downgrades, leaving the cloud in place? if detritus is always good, you'll get the same 23 pages/no losses.

*disclaimer
my own sandbed hasn't been blast cleaned in a while and has some cloud in it, and, nothing is going wrong w my tank due to that. Its a bit of natural feed storing up, not a huge issue for me*

once I get to where I have to start cleaning the glass really often, and cyano becomes selected-for again in my unskimmed systems, then a rip clean simply reduces my tank work for another year its just a form of catch - up vs incremental cleaning.
 
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brandon429

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I would also add:

roller mat systems that are the rage today/everyone spending money on are solely designed to mitigate detritus

somewhere other than in my posts, a tide swell against storing up additional waste is forming and people are paying to accomplish that.

one of the best ways to learn about the impacts or nonimpacts of detritus is by stepping outside of the tanks we control so well at home, and into live time work threads where people will report quickly if you killed their system.

detritus wont harm yours or my system tremendously at home, but beginning work in another's tank in live forum work? = humbling, and detritus kills... I'm telling ya its critical planning for tank moves, upgrades, downgrades, literally any time access is required or peoples tanks will die

Live work threads have unstated variables, detritus is one key unstated variable that causes all kinds of loss when its not considered. When its factored, losses are zero so far in the threads we have avail.
 
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Scott Campbell

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But he specially remarks on the surviving microfauna, and my YouTube channel has videos of mine in the vase, scurrying. We have mas pods they’re not an issue

I was remarking moreso on how badly that rip clean might have gone if we viewed detritus as neutral or not the source of all tank loss during fill cleans / very impactful

Detritus caused his problem and we think removing it will make his tank turnaround. Tbd

I would also say that working in others peoples tanks vs my own at a ration of 2000:1 forms a large basis of the claim as well.

It would be neat to see any other counter work being produced to support the other side...such as, hop in work threads and fix invasions/crashes by leaving all the waste in place. we get to see how easy/fast/long lasting that is with their updates etc, to compare outcomes.

No disagreement that detritus can cause an issue.

But constantly referring to all large tanks as "diluted" is ridiculous. Dilution is simply a function of how much life exists per gallon - bioload relative to water volume. Tank size has nothing to do with that. A flower vase with one coral polyp will be significantly more diluted than Paul B's much larger tank. You also argue that large tanks with detritus are more susceptible to crashing during a power outage because they carry a higher bioload than smaller tanks. So large tanks are somehow both more diluted and less diluted than small tanks. You change your argument to suit your purpose rather frequently.

And yes - amphipods and algae can exist in a nano-sized aquarium. But not in a manner that functions as an effective means of filtration. With a larger tank you can attach an algae turf scrubber or a refugium or sustain large colonies of varying and diverse microfauna in-tank which allows for a biological means to process excess nutrients that is simply not practical or even possible with a flower vase.

And lord - how many people have commented in this forum about having successful tanks without regularly "rip cleaning" their tank. Hundreds?? What more proof do you really want? "Rip cleaning" may be the optimal strategy for a 2 or 3 gallon tank. But what works optimally for a 2 or 3 gallon tank may not work optimally for a 200 or 300 gallon tank. No matter how many 2 or 3 gallon tank cleaning procedures you successfully document, you have not proved anything about best practices for maintaining larger systems capable of more bacterial and microfauna diversity.
 

casper320

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I had a bleaching event in my SPS tank that reversed after I siphoned my sand bed and removed blackish and sulphuric smelling detritus. That is anecdotal but after that event I won't just ignore detritus. Most of the big name vendors are practicing the "heavy in, heavy out" technique. The heavy out is exporting detritus. Most of the arguments in favor of not removing detritus are in the form of "muh feels" or "there isn't an endless amount of peer reviewed evidence, so everyone should ignore it."
 

brandon429

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Scott my work/remarks come not from threads where people post things are doing ok, but the work required ones. the giant cyano challenges, gha ones, all come from following 90s trends on storage IMO.

its not a vase thing, vases don't get invaded lol we're immune. We spend all our time helping the more stable larger setups.

when making comments about detritus its not my pico its the constant work for other tanks regarding invasion driving methods. Each link posted/not my tank but someone else's

If the microorganisms you mentioned were workhorses, it seems nobody would be selling rollermats. detritus contributions comes from those microorganisms, we either sink it out of mind (in a larger system) or we remove it creatively in some manner.

it also gets easier in larger systems/volume to install detritus and bioloading offsets, such as:

algal turf scrubbers

GFO and biopellet reactors, chaeto reactors to uptake waste in solution from it breaking down internally

etc. its always easier overlooking detritus when extra gallons are in play.
 
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Scott Campbell

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I had a bleaching event in my SPS tank that reversed after I siphoned my sand bed and removed blackish and sulphuric smelling detritus. That is anecdotal but after that event I won't just ignore detritus. Most of the big name vendors are practicing the "heavy in, heavy out" technique. The heavy out is exporting detritus. Most of the arguments in favor of not removing detritus are in the form of "muh feels" or "there isn't an endless amount of peer reviewed evidence, so everyone should ignore it."

Allowing waste to accumulate is not good. Balancing export to import is critical. No argument there. But the "heavy out" does not have to be detritus. At least that has never been the need in my tank. I couldn't siphon out detritus even if I wanted to as my tank is a solid mass of coral and rock. I just make sure the detritus gets broken down by microfauna so that the "heavy out" occurs with skimming of bacteria and harvesting of macroalgae. The "heavy out" (I like that term by the way) can be whatever works best for your system and needs. It seems odd to demonize what is essentially just a source of carbon. Folks add carbon in liquid state while siphoning out carbon in a solid state.
 

Scott Campbell

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Scott my work/remarks come not from threads where people post things are doing ok, but the work required ones. the giant cyano challenges, gha ones, all come from following 90s trends on storage IMO.

its not a vase thing, vases don't get invaded lol we're immune. We spend all our time helping the more stable larger setups.

when making comments about detritus its not my pico its the constant work for other tanks regarding invasion driving methods. Each link posted/not my tank but someone else's

If the microorganisms you mentioned were workhorses, it seems nobody would be selling rollermats. detritus contributions comes from those microorganisms, we either sink it out of mind (in a larger system) or we remove it creatively in some manner.

it also gets easier in larger systems/volume to install detritus and bioloading offsets, such as:

algal turf scrubbers

GFO and biopellet reactors, chaeto reactors to uptake waste in solution from it breaking down internally

etc. its always easier overlooking detritus when extra gallons are in play.

The microorganisms are indeed workhorses. The issue is not an inability of microorganisms to process carbon waste. The issue is an imbalance of export to import. Putting nutrients into your tank faster than you can get them out. Detritus accumulation is simply a symptom or reflection of that imbalance. Pulling out the detritus does nothing to address the import / export imbalance that is causing the detritus to accumulate in the first place. A better solution would be fewer fish relative to the microorganism population of the tank. Don't overwhelm the tank's natural capacity to process waste. Do things to help the tank's waste processing capacity - like stocking fish that consume the algae, worms & amphipods that grow in the tank. But people like having a lot of fish. And people are not always fond of the worms and bugs and such that comprise a healthy microfauna. So that is why people find roller mats helpful. And that is why your "rip cleaning" approach is an effective short-term solution.

But again - solid carbon is no different than liquid carbon. It is just a source of food. Carbon as a food source is not problematic. Continually adding more food to your tank than you are exporting will be a problem. And of course you are going to see that problem manifest more quickly on a very small tank or a large tank with a heavy bioload. Detritus is not the issue. Balancing nutrients in and nutrients out is the issue.
 

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Great job!

This is the exact reason I went with a bare bottom on my new build. That stuff would just get caught in the sand bed otherwise.
 

Dan_P

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Again - this concept of "dilution" you keep tossing out is nonsensical. A large tank can have a much higher bioload per gallon than a small tank. Tank size has nothing to do with how "diluted" the tank is. The difference between a large tank and a small or nano-sized tank is that a large tank affords more filtration options - like a refugium or a healthy colony of amphipods. A thriving population of microfauna is simply another means of filtration. And it is a particularly effective means of controlling detritus since detritus is a food source for microfauna. It is likely impossible to sustain a microfauna population in a flower vase sized aquarium. So that severely limits your filtration options to water changes and manual detritus removal. But that is a limit of flower vases - not "proof" that detritus must be manually removed.

Did a few calculations for a cube. The ratio of tank volume to bottom surface area increases with increasing volume. That is, as the tank size increases, the amount of water increases faster than the bottom surface area. For a fixed substrate depth, that means the amount of water grows faster with increasing tank size than the total amount of detritus in the system found in the substrate. On a tank wide basis, detritus is more “dilute”.

As for the rest the detritus debate...
 

Cory

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One point ive thought about is what effect does detritus have on yellowing water. And how does yellow water effect light penetration.

My other concern is what kind of parasites or bacteria thrive in a heavy detritus environment compared to light detritus environment.
 

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