Detritus is it as bad as some make out?

[Paul B]

I have no sump and most of my gravel bed is under my rocks and it has not been disturbed in maybe 10 or 15 years. No problem yet if that means anything. But I use gravel and a UG filter. I doubt a DSB would last 15 years no matter what you did.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

great thread

 

[brandon429]

Bumped

Read this whole thread, then read the thread also bumped up top about old tank syndrome, let's get a fun challenge detritus debate going.

large tankers making statements about detritus while running nine detritus offsets at once in the tank, remove one whole system goes eutrophic= safe zone



Ok go

https://reefbuilders.com/tag/old-tank-syndrome/

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/aafeature


Works like those above set the stage for impact of detritus

Nano reefing delivers the proof about OTS, fast. Don't have to wait a decade to measure/eval


Try to locate any other works online where the terms detritus/waste and eutrophication/old tank syndrome aren't intricately linked.


Caveat*
I'm not saying detritus kills a system, some is in my tank as we speak. It's food

But it's also not neutral, it's bioloading for your tank. A person cannot manage a sandbed rescue thread without knowing the risk of pent up waste...people's tanks will die

Detritus, good in moderation.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

Sanjay Joshi doesn't do anything about his detritus. No filter socks, just a nice DIY protein skimmer with epo putty [sp?]. 'Nuff said.

 

[brandon429]

Post link lets dissect

I don't even know the tank you mention but these key elements are what I'd like to dig in:

Volume

Age

Is this that twenty year old no water change twenty gallon I read about?


Depth of sandbed and pictures of it, plus a thread showing it's history/maturation.

Just like we can find a reefer who has never lost a tank to valonia, that doesn't mean by one example we can claim that to import and store valonia is harmless to all. Outliers always exist, that doesn't sell detritus nonimpact to me considering the examples to the counter I've posted. Let's get a detritus storer to write a formal article like the ones above, and write it after running ten nano reefs for other people online in threads

Have the test groups set up deep beds initially and never ever clean them and do the standard bi weekly partial water changes, just like large tanks. They each make their own thread with updates. Begin writing the article only after your controls reach four years old, see if detritus is neutral


Working in other people's tanks in threads that run live time and risking killing their system in front of everyone is much more humbling than making detritus inferences solely off ones home tank, safely. I'm more interested to see a claimants work shown as threads they manage for their claim vs pics of their home system.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

Sanjay Joshi is a Reef God and we are all just mere mortals.

 

[brandon429]

Can you find other examples not from him? Show me more than one example across a few of the authors about tanks that store waste. Some type of trending...any threads?

Im hoping not to see examples of large tanks for reasons posted, since dilution has made this threads base claim in full question.

 

[Lasse]

I probably have some 40 year old detritus in my tank. I use a reverse UG filter. OK, you laughed enough. I do stir or make a typhoon in my tank yearly but not because I want to remove all the detritus. It's because after a while my UG filter will clog. I don't feel detritus does anything else and actually think it is beneficial. Bacteria, pods, worms and Godzilla Larvae need someplace to grow and eat. Detritus captures particles that those things eat.
New, Clean tanks are never healthy, guess what one of the reasons are?

++++ for this - and do you know - I use a type of reverse UG filter too

Sincerely Lasse

 

[keithdoc]

we're all detritus capturers until something makes us change. either nitrate readings, or the countless posts online of nitrate problems that were mitigated by going bare bottom, or by stirring as prevention, or by rip cleaning the whole bed as I do. some opt of of sandbedding through careful planning and research.

nearly every GHA challenge tank has a sandbed that would cloud if disturbed for example. likely that some form of mechanical filtration uptakes some of the detritus for export as well.

Agree that detritus (in moderation) isn't necessarily a bad thing. Folks who can keep a stable system for 10+ years with significant feeding/bioload are probably using gravel (not sand/mud) and some type of UG filter to minimize the impact of a true anaerobic zone.

Having experienced a very stable 10yr nano with 6" DSB (and a small fuge on reverse light cycle) until end began battling GHA and elevated nitrate, finally succumbed only after I started messing with the DSB . . . I then started up a large 120G BB system, with all the cool gizmos, added filter socks and rigid water changes for an ULNS. . but without a proper refugium it lacked biodiversity /stability, and ultimately livestock were not very happy.

I've since gone back to a large / well lit fuge, plenty of feeding, macro algae and a healthy pod population (and giving Triton Method a try) in hopes of returning balance to a more natural LOW maintenance system. I will not miss filter socks or water changes.

 

[brandon429]

Nice

I like the idea of the plumbed dsb and remote bed types, where large particle waste doesn’t settle but is more of the water destination to flow over those delicate stratification and zones

Most of my beef is with display beds.

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/life-saver-during-outage.364972/


Detritus turns into a tax monster on the system in the event of a power outage.


** Again, many systems want the detritus, aware. Then factor a five fold command on oxygen if your pumps and heat ever stop and in the absolute worst place you could ever have detritus: a summertime power failure with a temp spike.


--that bacteria reproduction rule about every ten degrees in temp, detritus is gasoline for the fire. The substrate that is detritus free or low by design is a much more workable biological oxygen demand, IF hedging for safety is a factor in a given build. It should be known that before i cleaned my sandbed, it was full of detritus. it's impact to my system isn't immediate, so I put off cleaning like any other person... but as a long term tank owner I keep it clean only because it's safer. I replace that awesome source of marine snow, inaccessible in an emergency, with today's myriad live pod cultures

I know that my sandbed isn't a sink, so I'm not hesitant to feed up top. Detritus storers tend to be more measured in their feeding up top, they're already dealing with a storage contribution and that adjustment also seems to implicate the impacts of detritus to be considered if anyone is wanting the longest possible lifespan for a given investment.

 

[DSC reef]

Sanjay Joshi doesn't do anything about his detritus. No filter socks, just a nice DIY protein skimmer with epo putty [sp?]. 'Nuff said.

Can you recreate his system, water volume and other methods? Like others have said, you can keep a tank with detritus or with very little. It depends on your tank and many factors. You can't just run your tank like sanjay and expect the same results. What works for one might not work for another. Lots of great info in this thread. Another example would be like running radions at 100% power because the best reefer does it and wonder why you woke up to bare skeletons.

 

[atoll]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/life-saver-during-outage.364972/


Detritus turns into a tax monster on the system in the event of a power outage. My clean tiny bowl packed full of coral but no fish will survive longer stilled and in temp flux than any large tank here, hence removing those two taxes during a power outage makes large tanks stronger. Detritus impact was number two on the prep list for power outage safety.

I have never had such problems when I have had a power outage, I put that down to my use of Oxydators. Longest I have been without power is about 10 hours however but I wouldn't be without my Oxydators supply fresh O2 to my tank.

 

[brandon429]

Agreed on oxys I'm going back to that other thread to mention them. That mechanism is one thousand percent beneficial in a power outage.

 

[atoll]

Are we to ignore Randy and others who have run tanks successfully allowing large amounts of detritus to inhabit our sandbeds and sumps? I guess so as most seem to have done so on here. I read a lot of antidotal posts on here but et to read a proper scientific study on such things as how long detritus continues to break down into harmful substances or if and when it becomes inert. I have a heck of a lot of flow in my tank but I still have lots of detritus in my sand. I admit however my current tank has only been set up 2 years but I have had others with UG filters running many more years with plenty of detritus in the sand without major problems. Back in the day (and even today), UG was the way to go and even with reverse flow you will still get lots of detritus in the sand. Many run UG filtration for many years without issues. I bet when Paul breaks his tank down the sand will be full of detritus some of it 47 years old. I admit I don't have the answers just asking the question and believe some real scientific studies on detritus are well overdue to answer some if not all the questions posed.

I let detritus accumulate in my sump to form a mud more than an inch thick.

IMO, it is only a concern if you are trying to maintain a ULNS system, or otherwise have issues with elevated nutrients.

 

[brandon429]

Your use of the oxydator is a confound in how you see the impacts of detritus storage in my opinion. There is a specific post from Randy that factors heavily into why I won't keep detritus, what you take away from them vs what i take away is different. Plus I'm dealing in actions that we've had tested live time in hundreds and hundreds of online nano reefs and the cleaner systems are better. I think dilution reduces the ability to assess the impact of detritus, most of the formal works aren't on nano reefs so they don't catch my eye much.


I think certain tank loss events and stresses are best mitigated by the clean condition sandbed.

Now if someone wants to post up a way for ten thousand nano reefers with two grand of coral in their tanks to start storing up detritus and stop doing water changes then link those outcomes right here--------------------* for deep deep consideration, we'll have a point of view not rooted heavily in dilution.

Unhappy sandbed keepers are weekly posts here. Are the actual calcium carbonate sand grains causing diatoms, dinos and cyano or is it the interstitial goodies?

We're all storing detritus to some degree.

 

[atoll]

Your use of the oxydator is a confound in how you see the impacts of detritus storage in my opinion. There is a specific post from Randy that factors heavily into why I won't keep detritus, what you take away from them vs what i take away is different


Our dilutions and offsets are massively day and night different.

I have no confusion as to how my Oxydators work for me and my system, the science is a little more complex, however. How my Oxydators impact on detritus is open to debate and I have seen no scientific studies on Oxydators and how they react with detritus until I do we can only speculate. There is a lot of speculation on this thread and I admit I am not adverse to that. There are some things we know about detritus, for instance, it is a good food source for some corals and that there is a lot of bacterial activity on it. I try and keep an open mind but so much is incidental and speculation and detritus being blamed for all manner of things as it often suits to do so. Maybe one day all will be revealed until then much is sheer speculation.

 

[Paul B]

I have never had such problems when I have had a power outage, I put that down to my use of Oxydators. Longest I have been without power is about 10 hours however but I wouldn't be without my Oxydators supply fresh O2 to my tank.

My reef has been subject to power outages probably a dozen or more times in the time it was set up. 4 days out during Sandy but at that time I had a generator which I ran about an hour for every 4 hours off.
My tank suffered no losses and nothing at all seemed different. The times that power had been completely out for two days,I also saw nothing happen. I really think my power could be out for a week and nothing will happen as long as I take out some water and dump it back in to give oxygen to the fish which is what I do. My reverse UG filter has large spaces for oxygen to penetrate even with out circulation. With in reason of course.
I feel sand would not be the best thing to have in an outage as almost no water would circulate.
I also believe the heart of my system, the RUGF is one reason it has never crashed for any reason.
PS, my gravel is loaded with detritus.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

Can you recreate his system, water volume and other methods? Like others have said, you can keep a tank with detritus or with very little. It depends on your tank and many factors. You can't just run your tank like sanjay and expect the same results. What works for one might not work for another. Lots of great info in this thread. Another example would be like running radions at 100% power because the best reefer does it and wonder why you woke up to bare skeletons.

If Sanjay Joshi can do it, then so can I ! Detritus is my "marine snow"! Si se puede!!!!

 

[rosshamsandwich]

i feed my zoas detritus..is that bad?