Detritus is it as bad as some make out?

[brandon429]

Team

We could get helpful data if those with untouched sandbeds would provide some nitrate reading from samples from the bed. If the theory is correct, then you'll see high nitrate up top, in aerobic strata, and then down at the bottom it should test as neutral mud minerals no or lower nitrate and that can make a really strong case regarding bed self management.

Tape a small diameter tube to a dowel and insert into the bed and draw some mud up and decant top water so that mud is in the sample. We are wanting a concentrated reading of the most possible proteins to reflect on, so dump off top water

Let sample sit for 36 hours open to the air before testing for nitrate and see if two simple readings, a top and a bottom, yield any diff nutrient readings to indicate mineralization.

 

[SciGuy2]

Whenever I start a siphon I eat detritus...is that bad?

 

[rosshamsandwich]

Whenever I start a siphon I eat detritus...is that bad?

you are receiving your essential proteins and amino acids for the daily uptake assuming a 2000 calorie diet

 

[brandon429]

I too have partaken

thoughts of vibrio briefly, then mouth peroxide all set.

 

[Labridaedicted]

I too have partaken

thoughts of vibrio briefly, then mouth peroxide all set.

Ooooooo.... Vibrio brings back bad memories. Got a vibrio infection from a stingray sting. That was not a good time...

 

[brandon429]

serious biz, I don't think ive met someone online who has been whipped by a ray nor had that infection= wow~ that means when we were diving in stingray city / caymans there must have been a thousand lancets right around our faces, other ends attached to dive suits the dive crew thought would be funny to rub squid on before we put on the gear. felt like 16 rainbow vac all at once

 

[Reefin Dude]

what can confuse the discussion are the forms in which N and P are in. when organically bound N and P are not that big of a deal. it is when the bacteria get a hold of these that the problems occur. converting to inorganic N and P.

detritus in its solid form can be food for several of the organisms we keep. it is unfortunately also "food" for bacterial. they are doing the lions share of the feeding. leaving inorganic N, P, and CO2 as byproducts, and consuming C.

why carbon dose water columns, but not substrates?

when taking samples from within a substrate, any organic material is going to contain N and P. unfortunately there is not a mechanism for significant nutrient export from a substrate. some does make it out, but not equal to or faster than it is going into the substrate. if there was, than no matter how old a substrate is you could disturb it and nothing would fluff out of it. even a substrate that was put in as clean as it can be will show detritus build up when disturbed after a short period of time.

is detritus as bad as some make it out to be. yes, and no depending on the environment one is trying to emulate. how bad can having poo sitting in your toilet be for extended periods of time?

G~

 

[brandon429]

litterbox not ever, ever changed analogy better fit

-hacking on sandbeds is making someone with a successful 15 year old one very angry right now, awr, a little mulm hacking is good locker room stuff~

am awr right now someone has a 15 yr old sandbed truly untouched and its doing fine, we don't rob from that...again just stating that with waste compounding comes variation, and invasion threads, though agreed its commanded well by select reefers.

its undeniable the last decade in reefing has trended away from waste storage regardless of the platform we sample from. over at reefcentral, same thing. nano-reef.com, same thing. fancy retail dosers and live pod cultures are providing nutrients in living materials vs the mostly degraded ones where people simply opt to reef cleaner due to more controlled outcomes.

even my good friend Maritza the Vase Reef doesn't clean her sandbed, its untouched for about 6 yrs now and that system is 1.2 gallons total volume and more sps than any reef on this board per unit of fluid, its a packed old system and even though her bed isn't manually cleaned like others do, she's doing 90-100% water changes weekly and scraping up the top mulm in the out flow, so that is preventing incursion. she's also dosing weekly a digestion product bacteria, non nitrifiers but sludge digesters which reduce mulm even further and then the water changes carry out their compounds in harmony.

there are always ways of working with sandbeds and not disturbing them and still being waste minded.

 

[Reefin Dude]

only if you put a philodendron in the litter box.

i have done my fair share of substrated systems over the years that were untouched. i started reefing back in the late 80's, so i have experienced the difference between the maintenance/cost of a substrated vs. non. there absolutely is a middle ground, and this is what most people employ. i found the additive/equipment costs to be more annoying to me than just a little siphoning.

i think for anybody to understand the hobby and make their system the best it can be, they need to know the limitations and how everything works together. they see the costs for all of the additives and equipment and nearly all of it is not necessary if the system is setup appropriately for their must have organism.

G~

 

[brandon429]

this system loves detritus: fourteen year old detritus based nano 3 gallon planted tank. I wouldn't remove one speck of shrimp pellet gold from this production system. Strange how polar opposite effects exist in freshwater for detritus storage where aerenchyma (plant roots en masse shoot oxygen into the depths of the bed offsetting detritus command of oxygen/stagnation) are involved~

Not a speck of algae or cyano, and it's a ten inch dsb of pure guppy waste and fluorite planting substrate and powdered laterite few pounds at the very bottom.
Non export self balancing plant system. Shrimp run this like pigs run bartertown. Detritus is relished here across the way from the detritus ocd setup.

The waste gasses that detritus produces: wanted and beneficial in a plant loaded system

The nutrient sinking afforded by having detritus packed into a sandbed just shy of a foot deep: why my grandchildren's great grand children will hopefully inherit a plant producing system. Detritus is great for systems that want mass plant loading

Eutrophic state interestingly involves a shift to plant dominance on a reef, and only select home systems want that benefit.

Every stratified layer of shrimp waste pellets is another year sustenance for the canopy, this is a zero lifespan limit ecosystem /mid proof. Given topoff and occasional feeding it will never stop producing plants via the interaction from massive amounts of bacteria-modulated detritus breakdown, aka my intended co2 pump.


A dirty sandbed in a reef is a pH reducer/loading. If that was corn stalks above vs ten foot bamboo and we were on Mars, we'd eat like kings at least twice a year for good, all thanks to accounted for detritus and the massive nutrient reserve that it is

 

[Paul B]

Whenever I start a siphon I eat detritus...is that bad?

Yes, but if you put a little garlic or lemon on it, it isn't bad.

 

[NY_Caveman]

Whenever I start a siphon I eat detritus...is that bad?

Use a turkey baster to start that siphon!

 

[cracker]

Great read ! Thanks.

 

[cracker]

Can somebody please point me to brandon,s sand blast thread? I can't find it ?? thanks

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445

Added a new nano yesterday last page, keepers very first rip cleaning


They’d been on the chemi clean approach and that bed smelled bad when it was cleaning time

 

[Reefin Dude]

not much better than fish waste as a fertilizer!!

absolutely works great for an eutrophic system. not so much for an oligotrophic system.

G~

 

[brandon429]

fun status update pre summer 2018:

All my private messages / tank restorations going on right this second have 100% to do with detritus management, and the algal impacts thereof. talk amongst yslvs





*other side of the coin

we've got a sandbed tuner who doesn't have a stored up bed at all, but does employ some bed stirring in the name of balanced marine snow feeding for the tank. They may not want a bone-clean sandbed, but they keep the balances tipped in the clean favor and the clouding is only minimal. never pent up to the point a disturbance could kill the tank. this is a neat blending of methods IMO.

so they're not stirring about a 5 yr hands off bed, casting muck...they're stirring a sandbed that was pre rinsed at the start, then rinsed again mid cycle, and now after a few feedings and guided live rock additions + corals, they stir lightly to dislodge and to make feed in balance with the tank. a perfect blend of cleaning and utilization of the evil cloud. nice. I was also sent some really nice salifert po4 measurement data pre and post detritus rinsing, has a stark effect on water table measures. pretty neat.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

my corals and pods love detritus

 

[hotashes]

fun status update pre summer 2018:

All my private messages / tank restorations going on right this second have 100% to do with detritus management, and the algal impacts thereof. talk amongst yslvs





*other side of the coin

we've got a sandbed tuner who doesn't have a stored up bed at all, but does employ some bed stirring in the name of balanced marine snow feeding for the tank. They may not want a bone-clean sandbed, but they keep the balances tipped in the clean favor and the clouding is only minimal. never pent up to the point a disturbance could kill the tank. this is a neat blending of methods IMO.

so they're not stirring about a 5 yr hands off bed, casting muck...they're stirring a sandbed that was pre rinsed at the start, then rinsed again mid cycle, and now after a few feedings and guided live rock additions + corals, they stir lightly to dislodge and to make feed in balance with the tank. a perfect blend of cleaning and utilization of the evil cloud. nice. I was also sent some really nice salifert po4 measurement data pre and post detritus rinsing, has a stark effect on water table measures. pretty neat.

I know exactly that feeling Brandon, it all helps

Ash.

 

[brandon429]

This thread has been a fun investigation of both ends of the detritus spectrum

Naturally, since i reef in only one gallon I detest it heh

For every gallon added up to three hundred, that’s several increments of concern removed

I can’t call the stuff neutral and of zero consequence, but I can’t call it raw phosphorous either the reader can take both slants and factor it into experience somewhere in between as they modulate or do not modulate detritus stores in the tank. Great debate thread.