Dinos / diatoms ID

bearman88 · Oct 6, 2020

Hello folks, starting my 2nd adventure with this tank of dinos. I restarted the tank 5 months ago due to dinos and other issues, and this started growing about a month ago. I also have green hair, but not as concerned about that as I feel it's easier to beat. Microscope arrives today, and I did the coffee filter test (see photo). After 15 minutes, the water was still clear, but now closer to an hour later, it seems like the stuff bound back together into clumps, as you can see in the photo. So I'm thinking it's dinos at this point.

Parameters:
Reefer 250 - 65g
Temp: 78.3
PH: 7.9
Nitrate: 5.0ppm
Phosphate: .03ppm
dKH: 9.8
Mg: 1510
Ca: 420
Salinity: 1.026
TDS: 3 (realized I was probably over a year past due on all 3 RO/DI filter replacements, they arrive today)
Lighting settings - see attached (2x AI Hydra 26s) - I have intentionally kept my lighting about this low for 5 months to avoid algae outbreaks.

GFO in a reactor runs 24/7.
Dosing Ca, Mg, Alk

I lightly feed mysis every 2-3 days. Just one clown and a barber goby. Typical CuC.

It seems to have gotten worse once I started siphoning my sandbed to clean it, about a month ago. I can siphon the brown dinos out of the entire sandbed, and the sandbed will be covered again in 3 days.

That's where I'm at so far. I will post microscope results tonight or tomorrow. I'm reading through everyone else's dino posts also. Any advice is appreciated!

Reefer5640 · Oct 6, 2020

Kind of looks like Dino’s in the second pic. Can’t tell in the others on my phone. The microscope will obviously be a big help

SMSREEF · Oct 6, 2020

My guess is diatoms, but microscope pics you post tonight will be key for an ID.

bearman88 · Oct 6, 2020

Here we go - ok first time to use a microscope since grade school so cut me some slack

. Pretty incredible to see all the life scuttling around.. Attached is one still shot and one GIF at 1200X zoom. I just dropped them on a slide,I didn't mash them between two slides, hope that's ok. Let me know if I need to re-do. Thanks!

SMSREEF · Oct 6, 2020

Uh Oh... I think you got Dino's. I just don't know which ones.
@taricha and @ScottB are you able to ID with the above Pic and GIF?

ScottB · Oct 6, 2020

Wow those pics show more diversity than Sunset Park Brooklyn on a Sunday afternoon in June -- pre-Covid of course.

OK so first off: @taricha has the override on what I say. Let's be clear about that. He will be along in due time. (He is rumored to have a job or something.)

The images are not (for me) conclusive about species. Pressed to guess, I would lean large and small cell amphidinium. But those are dinoflagellates for sure.

My remedies:
a) Time. Five months is soooooooo young. Like taking a GMAT at age 3 years. There is so many more biome shifts ahead for you. Keep the basics going smoothly. Salinity, temp, ALK, and some NO3 and PO4. All consistently in range. Let the biome sort out the winners/losers. Intervening otherwise is counterproductive to maturation for the most part.
b) Too soon for GFO. Hair algae in a young tank is as normal as acne on a 13 yr old. Just do the normal husbandry.
c) RSR 250 is a great tank. My first real success was with this tank. My method is to load it to the gills with fish. Run heavy out/heavy in. Just get there SLOWLY. Once filled, there will be a place for GFO potentially.
d) We should all own a good UV. You could do some research on what best suits. Sand based amphids are not killed by UV, but most others are. You would need around 20 watts to be effective against other dinos.

If taricha comes back with LC amphids, you may be advised to dose silicates to feed competitive diatoms.

Question: what kit are you testing PO4? Hanna ULR is really the only low range kit worth owning IMO.

Hang in there.

bearman88 · Oct 6, 2020

@ScottB thanks for all the info. So first question is if I stop my GFO, won't that raise my phosphates, thus feeding the dinos/GHA? or is the thought that the beneficial bacteria/'stuff' needs more phosphates and silica to out compete the dinos?

And yes - I am using Hanna digital reader for PO4, and salifert NO3 tests.

ScottB · Oct 7, 2020

bearman88 said:
@ScottB thanks for all the info. So first question is if I stop my GFO, won't that raise my phosphates, thus feeding the dinos/GHA? or is the thought that the beneficial bacteria/'stuff' needs more phosphates and silica to out compete the dinos?

And yes - I am using Hanna digital reader for PO4, and salifert NO3 tests.

You are correct. Stopping GFO will allow PO4 to rise. Other organisms are stronger consumers of PO4 and NO3 than dinos. GHA is a good example. I prefer film algae myself

. Film bacteria are also solid consumers. SPS corals are consumers as well, but they do so indirectly by eating the bacteria that eat the PO4. (Lou Ekus discusses this very well on a youtube video or two.)

Dinos outcompete when the nutrient levels get too low. That is why (in general) the first step in dino treatment is to raise nutrient. A PO4 reading of .03 can be really close to 0 when you account for +-.02 error margin. If your PO4 exceeds .1 then you could reapply it. I've dealt with dinos a few times when I let nutrients drop. I run >.1 PO4 now to keep dinos suppressed.

I find it interesting that you have PO4 with such light feeding. Was your reef rock from a previous nutrient rich system?

bearman88 · Oct 7, 2020

ScottB said:
You are correct. Stopping GFO will allow PO4 to rise. Other organisms are stronger consumers of PO4 and NO3 than dinos. GHA is a good example. I prefer film algae myself . Film bacteria are also solid consumers. SPS corals are consumers as well, but they do so indirectly by eating the bacteria that eat the PO4. (Lou Ekus discusses this very well on a youtube video or two.)

Dinos outcompete when the nutrient levels get too low. That is why (in general) the first step in dino treatment is to raise nutrient. A PO4 reading of .03 can be really close to 0 when you account for +-.02 error margin. If your PO4 exceeds .1 then you could reapply it. I've dealt with dinos a few times when I let nutrients drop. I run >.1 PO4 now to keep dinos suppressed.

I find it interesting that you have PO4 with such light feeding. Was your reef rock from a previous nutrient rich system?

With that being said, should I even worry about beating the GHA at this time? Or just manual removal (carefully) and deal with it after the dinos battle is gone? I think I may pick up an urchin + lawnmower blenny to help.

My rock is 'Life Rock' (dry artificial rock) - I feed mysis every 2-3 days and some reef roids. Also, I was doing about 12 drops of live phyto each night, which I have backed off of lately. Now only like 8 drops every few days.

I do seem to have a decent copepod population going on from the 3-4 bottles I've dumped in over time. I saw a super fat shrimp looking one the other night I was stoked about.

ScottB · Oct 7, 2020

bearman88 said:
With that being said, should I even worry about beating the GHA at this time? Or just manual removal (carefully) and deal with it after the dinos battle is gone? I think I may pick up an urchin + lawnmower blenny to help.

My rock is 'Life Rock' (dry artificial rock) - I feed mysis every 2-3 days and some reef roids. Also, I was doing about 12 drops of live phyto each night, which I have backed off of lately. Now only like 8 drops every few days.

I do seem to have a decent copepod population going on from the 3-4 bottles I've dumped in over time. I saw a super fat shrimp looking one the other night I was stoked about.

Manual removal of GHA is always good. Herbivores won't eat the long stuff. They prefer the fresh new shoots and eventually will be able to control your GHA once the biome settles down. Roids and phyto are fairly rich nutrient sources, so that makes more sense to me now.

bearman88 · Oct 7, 2020

ScottB said:
Manual removal of GHA is always good. Herbivores won't eat the long stuff. They prefer the fresh new shoots and eventually will be able to control your GHA once the biome settles down. Roids and phyto are fairly rich nutrient sources, so that makes more sense to me now.

I just turned off my GFO reactor. Are there target nitrate/phosphate numbers I should chase right now?

taricha · Oct 7, 2020

ScottB said:
Pressed to guess, I would lean large and small cell amphidinium. But those are dinoflagellates for sure.

My remedies:
a) Time. Five months is soooooooo young. Like taking a GMAT at age 3 years. There is so many more biome shifts ahead for you. Keep the basics going smoothly. Salinity, temp, ALK, and some NO3 and PO4. All consistently in range. Let the biome sort out the winners/losers. Intervening otherwise is counterproductive to maturation for the most part.
b) Too soon for GFO. Hair algae in a young tank is as normal as acne on a 13 yr old. Just do the normal husbandry.
c) RSR 250 is a great tank. My first real success was with this tank. My method is to load it to the gills with fish. Run heavy out/heavy in. Just get there SLOWLY. Once filled, there will be a place for GFO potentially.
d) We should all own a good UV. You could do some research on what best suits. Sand based amphids are not killed by UV, but most others are. You would need around 20 watts to be effective against other dinos.

I see mostly Large Cell Amphidinium.
Everything Scott said here. The advice is really good.

ScottB · Oct 8, 2020

bearman88 said:
I just turned off my GFO reactor. Are there target nitrate/phosphate numbers I should chase right now?

With a lot of GHA, your tests are going to read lower as the stuff consumes nutrients pretty quick. In general:
NO3 10-15
PO4 around .1

LC Amphids are slow to resolve. They cling to the sand and don't swim, so the UV won't help. On the bright side, they don't have the toxins present in the other species. They are ugly, but won't kill anything.

There is an amphidinium thread here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/amphidinium-dinoflagellate-treatment-methods.365850/

TBH, unlike other species, I am not sure there is a clear consensus opinion on treatment. What works for some does not for others. My favorite for your situation (new biome) is to simply leave them alone and let them burn themselves out. Don't try vacuuming the sand for a good while. Just keep to your normal husbandry routine. Add a few interesting new fish, so that you don't just stare at the uglies on the sand.

If you have some sump space, see if you can find some old mature rock from another system. You are trying to add a little bacterial, microbial, and microfauna diversity. You could also add some pods as some (not sure exactly which) will eat amphids.

In any case you will have to be patient. Think months, not weeks. Some folks lose patience and remove the sand but this has other noisy consequences that I don't care for.

bearman88 · Oct 8, 2020

Thank you very much @ScottB and @taricha
I stopped my GFO, skimmer, and aerator. I am also going to try the temperature increase slowly. I'm at 77.8 this morning. Some people reporting success at 83degrees, with no adverse affects to wildstock. I'm thinking bump up my heater 1 degree every 4 days, seem slow enough?

I will also research the silica dosing topic. I am considering doing a Triton test send-off now, and one down the road. I heard the Salifert silicon tests may be unreliable, so if anyone has another suggested kit please share.

SeeFu · Oct 14, 2020

over the course of the last month or so i've been dosing nitrates and phophates. i was reading 0/0. now i'm at

PO4 - .07
NO3 - 10

all of a sudden within the past 3-4 days i've noticed what appears to be dino to be showing up. should I continue to dose PO4 until i hit .1? I never thought I would run a PO4 level that high, i was just just aiming for .05. lol

SeeFu · Oct 14, 2020

i should really invest in a microscope to make sure i have dino. anyone have a recommendation?

ScottB · Oct 14, 2020

SeeFu said:
i should really invest in a microscope to make sure i have dino. anyone have a recommendation?

I have this one. If I were to get a different one, I think I would get one that has a phone cradle and good recommendations. It is really hard to get a good video.

SeeFu · Oct 14, 2020

ScottB said:
I have this one. If I were to get a different one, I think I would get one that has a phone cradle and good recommendations. It is really hard to get a good video.

I think you forgot the link