Dinos with high Nitrate and Phosphate?

[toadstool_paradise]

I am sorry to post again about this but I'm stumped. Tank running 2 yrs no bad algae. 20 gallon, 3 fish (clown, swissguard basslet, YWG) handful of snails and a hermit. Fed until they looked full every other day. Barely any water changes on the tank during the 2 yrs. RODI 0 TDS water for top off. December 5th 2020 I noticed I was getting brown film algae growth on my glass. Would come back 2x a day when I scraped it. A bit would grow on my sand too. Started covering my corals including a gorgonian, MANY toadstools, zoas, polyps/palys, sinularia, kenya tree, fungia coral. I thought it was diatoms BECAUSE my parameters which have ALWAYS been the same have not fluctuated.

Params always: (tested weekly for 2 yrs)
Ammonia-0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate ALWAYS 10-25ppm never reached 0 or close to 0
Phosphate .1-.25 was highest I ever measured, once again never close to 0
Temp-77-79
Salinity usually 1.024-1.025

I treated this outbreak as if it was diatoms. Many huge water changes. Tried replacing the heater. Tried Poly Filter with no color change and did not help. Tried Phosguard, Chemi Pure Blue, Bacteria dosing, adding macroalgae. NOTHING worked, in fact it got worse. The weird thing- ALL my mushroom corals MELTED away. And I mean turned to goo. My beautiful toadstools have ALL melted as well. They crumbled when I tried to brush algae off of them. Everything I removed smelled rotten. All polyps and zoas melted. ALL my CUC is dead. Including my healthy army of stomatella snails which I am devastated about. The only unaffected thing left alive in my tank is fish. My three fish are fine and eating well.

After the death of everything but the fish, I still thought it was diatoms because the 'algae' in question is dust like in nature and never saw any bubbles or long strings. I was really sad and rip cleaned my tank. Scrubbed the whole thing in peroxide and removed all sand and rock. Replaced sand with new sand and got brand new rock. Jump started tank with bottle bacteria and put in fish. All seemed well for 3 days. Then I got home from work and the 'algae' was covering the glass and sand and rock. I am at a loss.

It was suggested that this was dinoflagellates. I was shocked because my nutrients are ALWAYS high and have never bottomed out even when I used Phosguard and ChemiPure blue to treat the 'diatoms'. I looked at it under the microscope and sure enough it looks like dinos. I couldn't take a good pic or video but it sure looks like either Amphidinium or Prorocentrum. Judging by the fact it killed all inverts including corals I think its prorocentrum. Rounded body with divot in the center. Not sesame shaped like ostreopsis. Will try to get a better pic.

My question is: Has anyone else had dinos with high nutrients? Have they killed your corals and melted your mushrooms? Im soooo confused why I have this and why some people can have corals in severe dino outbreaks but all of mine died. Please help. Currently finishing a 3 day blackout with H2o2 dosing and have a UV sterilizer running. Thanks.

Just measured params: Ammonia-0 Nitrite-0 Nitrate-25ppm Phosphate-.2 Temp 79 Salinity 1.024

first pic is tank before the dinos then next pics speak for themselves..

 

[Dan_P]

I am sorry to post again about this but I'm stumped. Tank running 2 yrs no bad algae. 20 gallon, 3 fish (clown, swissguard basslet, YWG) handful of snails and a hermit. Fed until they looked full every other day. Barely any water changes on the tank during the 2 yrs. RODI 0 TDS water for top off. December 5th 2020 I noticed I was getting brown film algae growth on my glass. Would come back 2x a day when I scraped it. A bit would grow on my sand too. Started covering my corals including a gorgonian, MANY toadstools, zoas, polyps/palys, sinularia, kenya tree, fungia coral. I thought it was diatoms BECAUSE my parameters which have ALWAYS been the same have not fluctuated.

Params always: (tested weekly for 2 yrs)
Ammonia-0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate ALWAYS 10-25ppm never reached 0 or close to 0
Phosphate .1-.25 was highest I ever measured, once again never close to 0
Temp-77-79
Salinity usually 1.024-1.025

I treated this outbreak as if it was diatoms. Many huge water changes. Tried replacing the heater. Tried Poly Filter with no color change and did not help. Tried Phosguard, Chemi Pure Blue, Bacteria dosing, adding macroalgae. NOTHING worked, in fact it got worse. The weird thing- ALL my mushroom corals MELTED away. And I mean turned to goo. My beautiful toadstools have ALL melted as well. They crumbled when I tried to brush algae off of them. Everything I removed smelled rotten. All polyps and zoas melted. ALL my CUC is dead. Including my healthy army of stomatella snails which I am devastated about. The only unaffected thing left alive in my tank is fish. My three fish are fine and eating well.

After the death of everything but the fish, I still thought it was diatoms because the 'algae' in question is dust like in nature and never saw any bubbles or long strings. I was really sad and rip cleaned my tank. Scrubbed the whole thing in peroxide and removed all sand and rock. Replaced sand with new sand and got brand new rock. Jump started tank with bottle bacteria and put in fish. All seemed well for 3 days. Then I got home from work and the 'algae' was covering the glass and sand and rock. I am at a loss.

It was suggested that this was dinoflagellates. I was shocked because my nutrients are ALWAYS high and have never bottomed out even when I used Phosguard and ChemiPure blue to treat the 'diatoms'. I looked at it under the microscope and sure enough it looks like dinos. I couldn't take a good pic or video but it sure looks like either Amphidinium or Prorocentrum. Judging by the fact it killed all inverts including corals I think its prorocentrum. Rounded body with divot in the center. Not sesame shaped like ostreopsis. Will try to get a better pic.

My question is: Has anyone else had dinos with high nutrients? Have they killed your corals and melted your mushrooms? Im soooo confused why I have this and why some people can have corals in severe dino outbreaks but all of mine died. Please help. Currently finishing a 3 day blackout with H2o2 dosing and have a UV sterilizer running. Thanks.

Just measured params: Ammonia-0 Nitrite-0 Nitrate-25ppm Phosphate-.2 Temp 79 Salinity 1.024

first pic is tank before the dinos then next pics speak for themselves..

@taricha and @brandon429 this looks more serious than dinoflagellates, no?

 

[brandon429]

That reef looks really nice for sure, not sure what the growth is but when the time comes for a deep clean it won’t be hard in a twenty.


nanos have a unique accessibility where we don’t have to put up with invasions if we don’t want to. In my opinion handling the invasion in-tank is one way, through params and hardware adjusts and animal grazers if so lucky, and then simply deep cleaning the tank all at once is a totally separate option, can be wielded any time. If someone was determined to fix it in tank my initial reco wouldn’t be to alter params that have produced a nice reef, it’d be physical. Get a submersible uv sterilizer ready for install after the clean


hand-clean all the growths out by draining water, scraping up on all the glass with razor and then fill back up with clean water like a big water change and install the uv and keep hand guiding it until it abates


if parameter adjusts are wanted, then the clean method can be saved till the end/last option

 

[toadstool_paradise]

That reef looks really nice for sure, not sure what the growth is but when the time comes for a deep clean it won’t be hard in a twenty.


nanos have a unique accessibility where we don’t have to put up with invasions if we don’t want to. In my opinion handling the invasion in-tank is one way, through params and hardware adjusts and animal grazers if so lucky, and then simply deep cleaning the tank all at once is a totally separate option, can be wielded any time. If someone was determined to fix it in tank my initial reco wouldn’t be to alter params that have produced a nice reef, it’d be physical. Get a submersible uv sterilizer ready for install after the clean


hand-clean all the growths out by draining water, scraping up on all the glass with razor and then fill back up with clean water like a big water change and install the uv and keep hand guiding it until it abates


if parameter adjusts are wanted, then the clean method can be saved till the end/last option

Yes that pic was before the dinos came. Everything but fish died so I in fact did a total rip clean. I emptied the entire tank, removed sand removed rock. Put fish in bucket. Razor cleaned the tank and rinsed with peroxide. Filled with new sand, new rock. Added UV sterilizer and dosed bacteria every day. And these STILL returned. debating quitting at this point but love the hobby.

 

[brandon429]

Be willing to hand guide though / don’t have to fully disassemble but some aspect of repeat gardening is the best stand in we have


i noticed it seemed on the glass more than anything, I’d also lower light intensity a little bit and sustain that two weeks, it will not harm to go slightly less on light intensity as you try suppressions

i think it would be much worse, much more mass without the intervention. We need to track your thread in the sand rinse thread for sure to see how well dinos respond to rip cleans in a nicely stocked nano. If you got a bad strain and 2x weekly spot siphoning is required, thats the price for a while the tank actually looks good above

I didn’t know u rip cleaned it, but first glance it didnt seem high mass dinos for sure. You did a heck of a rip clean, re assembled all that like reef Tetris, well done.

any common dosers you want to try now have much less mass to contend with

people are buying loudwolf silicate and dosing it into reefs to spurn diatoms to outcompete dinos, thats an option.


adding actual live wiggling pods, charger kits with gammarid shrimps and true larger motile pods, is very strong up-to-date biological options. Specific websites offer these shipped refugium charger packs.


are these are better applied in the clean condition you caused, the battle is on. Dont give up for sure that’s a sharp reef

brightwell has $9 dosers for dinos battles, any of those are ok to try.


I dont like advising the phosphate and nitrate bumping, people hate when gha takes over right now that’s aggressive strain X but we’ve got a nano owner willing to beat down invaders too. nice timing for super bowl weekend, bowl them out again. What if the mass comes back less each time...all these are possible variables. You’re dealing with the top scourge in reefing, this isn’t considered easy for anyone enduring

 

[brandon429]

Just saw this was all new rock, that makes this unique among rip cleans, we always used the old rock. Every time, as guiding customized guiding for aged surfaces

multiple cleans guide a set of rocks overtime into compliance among your homes variables, this new requires more hand guiding and time in state to mature.


this is new tank uglies phase above

for sure decrease lighting intensity about 10-15% and sustain for two weeks as you decide.

 

[toadstool_paradise]

Be willing to hand guide though / don’t have to fully disassemble but some aspect of repeat gardening is the best stand in we have


i noticed it seemed on the glass more than anything, I’d also lower light intensity a little bit and sustain that two weeks, it will not harm to go slightly less on light intensity as you try suppressions

i think it would be much worse, much more mass without the intervention. We need to track your thread in the sand rinse thread for sure to see how well dinos respond to rip cleans in a nicely stocked nano. If you got a bad strain and 2x weekly spot siphoning is required, thats the price for a while the tank actually looks good above

I didn’t know u rip cleaned it, but first glance it didnt seem high mass dinos for sure. You did a heck of a rip clean, re assembled all that like reef Tetris, well done.

any common dosers you want to try now have much less mass to contend with

people are buying loudwolf silicate and dosing it into reefs to spurn diatoms to outcompete dinos, thats an option.


adding actual live wiggling pods, charger kits with gammarid shrimps and true larger motile pods, is very strong up-to-date biological options


are these are better applied in the clean condition you caused, the battle is on. Dont give up for sure that’s a sharp reef

brightwell has $9 dosers for dinos battles, any of those are ok to try.


I dont like advising the phosphate and nitrate bumping, people hate when gha takes over right now that’s aggressive strain X but we’ve got a nano owner willing to beat down invaders too. nice timing for super bowl weekend, bowl them out again.

Well I have time since all the corals are now dead. And fish have not been bothered. Cut out whites and will lower intensity on light. Pods are on order as well as a better microscope. Will continue dosing mb7 and will try to get some biodiversity in the tank. I am not a fan adding any chemicals to the tank and regret ever using any. Will stick with UV sterilizer and added biodiversity to try and control this.

 

[toadstool_paradise]

Just saw this was all new rock, that makes this unique among rip cleans, we always used the old rock. Every time, as guiding customized guiding for aged surfaces

multiple cleans guide a set of rocks overtime into compliance among your homes variables, this new requires more hand guiding and time in state to mature.


this is new tank uglies phase above

Was paranoid it would transfer on rock haha. I took a sample of the algae to make sure it wasnt just diatoms and it was dinos on the slide. It was impossible to get a good pic so I have a better microscope on order.

 

[brandon429]

Well you still made an instant cycle reef to carry a complete bioload on command, really this would make stuck cycle advocates stand in disbelief. With this degree of command over the tank I don’t see how they can hold out indefinitely, they’re being robbed of communal and commensal benefit with each forced run, that uv is helping + manual work for the change, I think light intensity trick will help and it’s safe to try.

if you can manually prevent mass even if it’s non disassembly large water changes, scraping runs and spot siphon, I think it will slow in time. This is really making use of a nano’s accessibility, one single rip clean run is often too much for a 90 gallon owner. plus it’s a natural for you, making a whole reef skip cycle on command is not common in forums. well done

it would be fun to try and attain refugium charging kits they are said to suppress and eat the offenders well

not invisible feed pods, gammarids, true wigglers added into a system cleaned a couple times (add after the cleanings, not before) sure is using the latest battle info all aligned for these pests.


**at any phase someones param altering trick such as raise phosphate in X relation to nitrate very well might work, they sure do work in dinos work threads. I’m not good at that kind of tuning, nanos allow you to try anything though and fall back on the rip clean rerun as needed

the light dropping would be fully indicated given the full substrate swap, I have specifically seen light intensity modulation to be a powerful force in coral control. Made a new thread on it, substrate swaps are listed as a time we drop intensity and slowly come back up. it can help while corals are irritated and retracted as dinos are fought

the natural suppressions for dinos have been reset here, but this isn’t bad growth above norm for a full reef swap and no ramp up of bioload and feed. remarks incredibly well on the bottle bac used


what a refreshing thread to be in @Dan_P getting to watch a resolved person fight dinos is very pleasant compared to eight pages of stuck ammonia my gosh. This thread is a breath of fresh air. You’re being challenged by the top invasion in reefing, responsible for no less than one million dollars in reef animals lost, everyone wants the combo to beat this stuff. Brute it out till you find the right way.

right now in eighty locations a large tank owner literally has no recourse but to sit there as blanketing takes over.

 

[toadstool_paradise]

Well you still made an instant cycle reef to carry a complete bioload on command, really this would make stuck cycle advocates stand in disbelief. With this degree of command over the tank I don’t see how they can hold out indefinitely, they’re being robbed of communal and commensal benefit with each forced run, that uv is helping + manual work for the change, I think light intensity trick will help and it’s safe to try.

if you can manually prevent mass even if it’s non disassembly large water changes, scraping runs and spot siphon, I think it will slow in time. This is really making use of a nano’s accessibility, one single rip clean run is often too much for a 90 gallon owner. plus it’s a natural for you, making a whole reef skip cycle on command is not common in forums. well done

it would be fun to try and attain refugium charging kits they are said to suppress and eat the offenders well

not invisible feed pods, gammarids, true wigglers added into a system cleaned a couple times (add after the cleanings, not before) sure is using the latest battle info all aligned for these pests.


**at any phase someones param altering trick such as raise phosphate in X relation to nitrate very well might work, they sure do work in dinos work threads. I’m not good at that kind of tuning, nanos allow you to try anything though and fall back on the rip clean rerun as needed

the light dropping would be fully indicated given the full substrate swap, I have specifically seen light intensity modulation to be a powerful force in coral control. Made a new thread on it, substrate swaps are listed as a time we drop intensity and slowly come back up.

Awesome I will do my best! Will look into gammarids too. Your advice is much much appreciated as I am still learning every day new things about this hobby

 

[toadstool_paradise]

Thought I would update: beat the dinos as of right now and got a few soft corals including a rhodactis to test and they’re doing well. Added another fish to help keep nitrates elevated and so far so good

 

[I’m Batman]

Thought I would update: beat the dinos as of right now and got a few soft corals including a rhodactis to test and they’re doing well. Added another fish to help keep nitrates elevated and so far so good

That was quick? How did you get them to recede when they were coming after your rip clean?

 

[toadstool_paradise]

That was quick? How did you get them to recede when they were coming after your rip clean?

UV sterilizer and dosed mb7 every day twice a day and let diatoms/hair algae take over when they formed. Fed super heavily, my nitrate raised to 40ppm lol. Then did a small water change and it’s looking good so far.

I think I did good damage when I redid the tank. Hard to tell the difference between the dinos and diatoms when they both started to come in so what I thought was a ton of dinos was probably diatoms.

 

[I’m Batman]

What sterilizer did you go with?

 

[toadstool_paradise]

What sterilizer did you go with?

The Green Killing Machine

 

[I’m Batman]

I may try that. I went with IM AquaSheild 10w but didn’t seem to help