DIY All-For-Reef Recipe from Tropic Marin! Thanks Zack!

[Hans-Werner]

Hello,
Lou asked me to answer some of your questions. I hope I will have got all.
It is not possible to mix K+ and A- Elements since both will react and form precipitates. Since Carbo-Calcium contains a lot of organic anions. These dilute and separate the different elements, i. e. by forming chelates with the cations. The organic proportion of Carbo-Calcium is necessary to do the job, it does not work with inorganic salts like calcium chloride.

As already stated by BRS Original Balling Part C is specifically for balancing the ions of Part A and Part B. It is not the same as K+ and A- Elements in powder form.

@Shooter6 Is your scoop transparent or blue?

 

[Drneil]

Thanks @Hans-Werner

So to mix K+ and A- you need the Carbo-calcium in the mix.

Also just wondering if you can clear my question on some of the adverts for all for reef. As I had the understanding it initially only contained A- and therefore I was dosing K+ in addition.

I was quite surprised when I first spotted the article on diy mixing that it also contained K+ and then went to the Tropic Marin website to confirm.

I have attached a snapshot from a website selling all for reef that mentions dosing k+ in addition.

Just want to clear this up in my own mind.

 

[Shooter6]

So, interesting result. With my gram scale, I measured out 6 scoops of carbocalcium, and this came out to just a hair over 120 grams. 7 scoops got me almost exactly 140 grams.

-Zack@BRS

Interesting. container says 6 = approximately 140gr.

 

[Bulk Reef Supply]

Interesting. container says 6 = approximately 140gr.

Yeah, I emailed Lou about this too, just to see what his take on this would be. I measured it out several times, and got between 120 and 124.5 grams from 6 level scoops, so a scoop seems to yield just about 20 grams. For reference, I've seen blue scoops too, but the one in the 1,400 gram container was a clear one, so maybe there's a difference, but the instructions are the same.

From the 700 gram container I used up recently, I was able to get exactly 5 liters of solution from it, so the actual amount of powder in the container seems to be spot on.

 

[Shooter6]

My container had the blue scoop and compaired to the ressea powder 20gr scoops were close

 

[crawling junk]

so basically its kalk with trace elements? (more potent ofcourse)

 

[AcanthurusRex]

This is where I got the recipe;

 

[Keenan]

Does anyone know if A- and K+ can be mixed together to dose with BRS 3 part. I have been wanting to dose trace for a while and have been looking into multiple options. This seems to be the best bet but I only have one head left on my doser. I saw in the video they were added in solution for the final All-For-Reef recipe but can they be mixed together by themselves?

Add A- to your Part B and K+ to Part A

 

[Bryknicks]

Thanks for the info! I will have to try this out.

 

[dhof]

Hello,
Lou asked me to answer some of your questions. I hope I will have got all.
It is not possible to mix K+ and A- Elements since both will react and form precipitates. Since Carbo-Calcium contains a lot of organic anions. These dilute and separate the different elements, i. e. by forming chelates with the cations. The organic proportion of Carbo-Calcium is necessary to do the job, it does not work with inorganic salts like calcium chloride.

As already stated by BRS Original Balling Part C is specifically for balancing the ions of Part A and Part B. It is not the same as K+ and A- Elements in powder form.

@Shooter6 Is your scoop transparent or blue?

Hans, thank you for weighing in, your post answers most of the questions in this thread so far. One more question you may be able to help us with is: In the All-For-Reef dosing instructions, the Tropic Marin site lists a "Maximum Dosage" per day. As others in this thread have shared, users are (frequently) exceeding that "Maximum Dosage" per day fairly often, with no real perceivable problem.

As an example, I estimate, based on my current 2-part Alk consumption, that I will need to dose 70ml of All-For-Reef per day, but the TM calculator for my 55 gallons of tank volume states the maximum is 52.04 ml per day.

Is the "maximum per day" a simplified guidance to prevent novice users from making mistakes, or is it something you view as a hard line? What sort of things should we look out for if we were to decide to dose more than the maximum per day?

 

[S.Pepper]

Hans, thank you for weighing in, your post answers most of the questions in this thread so far. One more question you may be able to help us with is: In the All-For-Reef dosing instructions, the Tropic Marin site lists a "Maximum Dosage" per day. As others in this thread have shared, users are (frequently) exceeding that "Maximum Dosage" per day fairly often, with no real perceivable problem.

As an example, I estimate, based on my current 2-part Alk consumption, that I will need to dose 70ml of All-For-Reef per day, but the TM calculator for my 55 gallons of tank volume states the maximum is 52.04 ml per day.

Is the "maximum per day" a simplified guidance to prevent novice users from making mistakes, or is it something you view as a hard line? What sort of things should we look out for if we were to decide to dose more than the maximum per day?

@dhof Your calculation sounds about right. On my 60 cube here at the office, I'm currently dosing about 75ml per day. My alk consumption is pretty similar to yours. Yes, this does exceed TM's recommended max dosage. I believe this is there to create an upper threshold for people to picture a reasonable upper dosage limit when starting. Otherwise people might just go nuts and dose way too much too quickly and see issues.

I can tell you that I started by working my way up to the max dosage on my tank and was still not maintaining alk, so I kept going up, slowly, until I got stable parameters. I ended up around 75mL per day where things seem to have settled with where I am keeping my colonies pruned at. I've been dosing All-For-Reef now since January of this year, and my tank had zero hiccups.

I'd been running Triton "Other" for a handful of months prior to that, just to see how my system reacted to that, and prior to that my system had been on BRS 2 part and Red Sea Trace Colors for over 2 years. Tank is now over 4 years old.

-Zack@BRS

 

[dhof]

I did notice that BRS replied with "I believe this is to create an upper threshold..", but that sounded like an opinion based on a small sample of their own experience.

I figured TM might want to provide us with a more definitive answer, or provide some of their reasoning for listing a maximum daily dose which is relatively low compared to what many of us actually use each day.

 

[dhof]

@NotASpammerDude If you were only to buy the small container of A & K, it's true that you would not be able to fully realize the savings of making your own, but keep in mind that the main component is carbocalcium, and the smaller container will make 5 liters of solution. The larger container will make 10 liters of solution. If you buy the 1400g container of Carbocalcium, the small container of Bio-Mag, and the 1000mL bottles of A&K, you can make 10 liters for a total cost of $120, which works out to $12/liter, and you'd still have Bio-Mag left over. The Bio-Mag will be enough for 37 liters of solution, so that will not be a cost next time you buy ingredients, and if you take the actual cost of materials for each liter into account, it's actually more like $10/liter.

I decided to do the math on the DIY All-For-Reef vs BRS 2-part with Red Sea Trace colors vs Tropic Marin Premade All-For-Reef. Just to truly understand what the cost is to switch compared to my current product (which is BRS/Red Sea).

The DIY All-For Reef is genuinely a significant cost savings over the premade All-For-Reef, but it does still appear to be about 2.1 to 2.5 times more expensive than BRS 2-part with Red Sea Trace colors.

The convenience of single solution dosing is almost certainly worth it still, and the DIY All-For-Reef certainly qualifies for "Realm of affordability for a higher demand system".

 

[S.Pepper]

I decided to do the math on the DIY All-For-Reef vs BRS 2-part with Red Sea Trace colors vs Tropic Marin Premade All-For-Reef. Just to truly understand what the cost is to switch compared to my current product (which is BRS/Red Sea).

The DIY All-For Reef is genuinely a significant cost savings over the premade All-For-Reef, but it does still appear to be about 2.1 to 2.5 times more expensive than BRS 2-part with Red Sea Trace colors.

The convenience of single solution dosing is almost certainly worth it still, and the DIY All-For-Reef certainly qualifies for "Realm of affordability for a higher demand system".

Nicely done. Ty. I haven't tried Tropic Marin's A-F-R, so I plan on buying 1000mls and see how I like it. If it works out well for me, then i'll do the DIY A-F-R. thx for breakdown.

 

[Shooter6]

Hello,
Lou asked me to answer some of your questions. I hope I will have got all.
It is not possible to mix K+ and A- Elements since both will react and form precipitates. Since Carbo-Calcium contains a lot of organic anions. These dilute and separate the different elements, i. e. by forming chelates with the cations. The organic proportion of Carbo-Calcium is necessary to do the job, it does not work with inorganic salts like calcium chloride.

As already stated by BRS Original Balling Part C is specifically for balancing the ions of Part A and Part B. It is not the same as K+ and A- Elements in powder form.

@Shooter6 Is your scoop transparent or blue?

Blue for the carbocalcium. I ordered 1000 ml of a & k, and another 3bls of carbocalcium. I already have the largest mag container. When the new stuff comes in ill mix it up again and video it so my issue is a le to be seen.

 

[Hans-Werner]

One more question you may be able to help us with is: In the All-For-Reef dosing instructions, the Tropic Marin site lists a "Maximum Dosage" per day. As others in this thread have shared, users are (frequently) exceeding that "Maximum Dosage" per day fairly often, with no real perceivable problem.

That is easy to answer: From empirical recommendations for the maximum vodka dosage we have calculated the theoretical oxygen consumption. Then we have applied this to the theoretical oxygen consumption of Carbo-Calcium and All-For-Reef.

Of course, there is a big difference: The vodka dosage is independent of coral growth while the dosage of Carbo-Calcium and All-For-Reef are always connected to coral growth. Corals photosynthesize during the day and produce oxygen. Maybe corals even consume some of the formate directly. This balances most of the oxygen consumption of Carbo-Calcium or All-For-Reef and avoids any problems when exceeding the "Maximum Daily Dosage". Also the oxidation of every molecule of ethanol (vodka) produces two molecules of CO2 while the oxidation of formate produces only one bicarbonate-anion. Usually the oxygen consumption of Carbo-Calcium and All-For-Reef remains imperceptible, we have not observed nor got any reports on pumping fish or similar problems.

It was a precautionary measure.

 

[Bulk Reef Supply]

Thanks so much @Hans-Werner again for your input. This is very helpful insight. I have noticed no issues or side-effects from dosing higher amounts of carbocalcium in order to match consumption.

I decided to do the math on the DIY All-For-Reef vs BRS 2-part with Red Sea Trace colors vs Tropic Marin Premade All-For-Reef. Just to truly understand what the cost is to switch compared to my current product (which is BRS/Red Sea).

The DIY All-For Reef is genuinely a significant cost savings over the premade All-For-Reef, but it does still appear to be about 2.1 to 2.5 times more expensive than BRS 2-part with Red Sea Trace colors.

The convenience of single solution dosing is almost certainly worth it still, and the DIY All-For-Reef certainly qualifies for "Realm of affordability for a higher demand system".

This was very cool. It's definitely true that compared to BRS 2 part, either option is still more expensive, but I think the value lies in the convenience of dosing a single solution that not only provides all necessary elements, but also does not affect salinity or change the ionic balance due to constant addition of sodium chloride to the system, or risk a pH spike like kalkwasser. Ultimately if those advantages are appealing enough, the DIY option is clearly the most economical path to that.

-Zack@BRS

 

[Silver14SS]

I decided to do the math on the DIY All-For-Reef vs BRS 2-part with Red Sea Trace colors vs Tropic Marin Premade All-For-Reef. Just to truly understand what the cost is to switch compared to my current product (which is BRS/Red Sea).

The DIY All-For Reef is genuinely a significant cost savings over the premade All-For-Reef, but it does still appear to be about 2.1 to 2.5 times more expensive than BRS 2-part with Red Sea Trace colors.

The convenience of single solution dosing is almost certainly worth it still, and the DIY All-For-Reef certainly qualifies for "Realm of affordability for a higher demand system".

Thanks for putting it in an easy to read spreadsheet!

 

[Hans-Werner]

I have attached a snapshot from a website selling all for reef that mentions dosing k+ in addition.

Yes, when we started with All-For-Reef it did not contain the complete K+ Elements, only some of them. So we recommended to dose K+ Elements additionally. When I noticed that both, K+ and A- Elements, can be mixed to All-For-Reef without problems that was a big progress.

 

[Drneil]

@Hans-Werner, thank you.

I'm fairly new to reefing but I must say I'm impressed by the detailed information you give on your products and it might seem daft to give away a diy solution comparable to all for reef. However I guess the majority that use all for reef will continue and those that have done but switched for cost reasons will give this a go.