DIY Barium additive

[ReefSymbiotic]

Ok, you clearly want to believe it is useful, so dose it. It certainly isn’t going to do anything worse then be a waste of time and money if you maintain natural levels.

But there are dozens of other elements to waste time and money on with similarly convincing data on utility based on deposition into coral skeletons.

Well it’s not clear to anyone. These are just opposing theories and possibilities. I do think nature knows best though and that would be my reason for dosing. No need to get frustrated it’s good to discuss these things. I’m happy to learn new things so regardless I appreciate the input and insight.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well it’s not clear to anyone. These are just opposing theories and possibilities. I do think nature knows best though and that would be my reason for dosing. No need to get frustrated it’s good to discuss these things. I’m happy to learn new things so regardless I appreciate the input and insight.

It is, of course, fine to debate and I welcome that here. We certainly cannot claim we know everything.

But I think that is mistating the case. It’s not just opposing “opinions”. According to the royal society of chemistry, Barium has no known biological role in any known organism. That is based on their assessment of every known study of barium.

On the opposing side are companies that sell it and say it’s important without any supporting data at all. Why can they not cite what data causes them to make that claim?

The two sides do not seem balanced to me.

Barium - Element information, properties and uses | Periodic Table

Element Barium (Ba), Group 2, Atomic Number 56, s-block, Mass 137.327. Sources, facts, uses, scarcity (SRI), podcasts, alchemical symbols, videos and images.

periodic-table.rsc.org

 

[ReefSymbiotic]

It is, of course, fine to debate and I welcome that here. We certainly cannot claim we know everything.

But I think that is mistating the case. It’s not just opposing “opinions”. According to the royal society of chemistry, Barium has no known biological role in any known organism. That is based on their assessment of every known study of barium.

On the opposing side are companies that sell it and say it’s important without any supporting data at all. Why can they not cite what data causes them to make that claim?

The two sides do not seem balanced to me.

Barium - Element information, properties and uses | Periodic Table

Element Barium (Ba), Group 2, Atomic Number 56, s-block, Mass 137.327. Sources, facts, uses, scarcity (SRI), podcasts, alchemical symbols, videos and images.

periodic-table.rsc.org

Yeah but when both corals and plankton incorporate it into its skeleton I’m inclined to disagree with you. Even if the full role of it is not known it is present in corals, seawater, and most marine animals for a reason. Not to be that guy but that’s like saying god made a mistake. Its further role is after life ceases to exist which could also help for marine life to live there again in the future. The full effects and role it has the skeleton aren’t well known but there are good theories. Which leads back to my original theory of helping the the absorption of calcium and the calcification process. So that is my opposing opinion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yeah but when both corals and plankton incorporate it into its skeleton I’m inclined to disagree with you. Even if the full role of it is not known it is present in corals, seawater, and most marine animals for a reason. Not to be that guy but that’s like saying god made a mistake. Its further role is after life ceases to exist which could also help for marine life to live there again in the future. The full effects and role it has the skeleton aren’t well known but there are good theories. Which leads back to my original theory of helping the the absorption of calcium and the calcification process. So that is my opposing opinion.

No, it’s not that nature made a mistake. It is simply that if you precipitate calcium carbonate in any way in the presence of barium, you incorporate barium. Mix sodium carbonate, calcium chloride, and have barium in the water and boom: barium is incorporated into the precipitated solid.

Its not that any organism is doing it intentionally. It is a simple chemical attribute. EXACTLY as it happens for uranium, plutonium, mercury, and a host of other trace elements you do not feel the same need to dose. Why not?

 

[ShakeyGizzard]

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, there are many papers that show that barium is “accidentally” incorporated into simple precipitating calcium carbonate. Here’s an example:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0016703718303338

 

[ReefSymbiotic]

No, it’s not that nature made a mistake. It is simply that if you precipitate calcium carbonate in any way in the presence of barium, you incorporate barium. Mix sodium carbonate, calcium chloride, and have barium in the water and boom: barium is incorporated into the precipitated solid.

Its not that any organism is doing it intentionally. It is a simple chemical attribute. EXACTLY as it happens for uranium, plutonium, mercury, and a host of other trace elements you do not feel the same need to dose. Why not?

Yes and it’s almost identical to calcium. By your own words to me that doesn’t sound bad in small amounts. If anything, helpful Even.

 

[ReefSymbiotic]

FWIW, there are many papers that show that barium is “accidentally” incorporated into simple precipitating calcium carbonate. Here’s an example:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0016703718303338

The animal itself may not be incorporating it accidentally but it’s not in seawater accidentally. You keep comparing it to uranium but it is much more like calcium. Not really a good comparison. So it looks like calcium it acts like calcium but in small amounts it’s bad? In high amounts soluble barium can be toxic but it has its use in small amounts it seems.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes and it’s almost identical to calcium. By your own words to me that doesn’t sound bad in small amounts. If anything, helpful Even.

Never once said it was "bad" to have natural levels of barium, although it is possible that it weakens the skeletons, but that weakness would be the natural state of affairs.

In any case, while I wouldn't bother and do not recommend anyone else bothering, it's certainly an Ok procedure to maintain natural levels of barium and all other ions in seawater.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The animal itself may not be incorporating it accidentally but it’s not in seawater accidentally. You keep comparing it to uranium but it is much more like calcium. Not really a good comparison. So it looks like calcium it acts like calcium but in small amounts it’s bad? In high amounts soluble barium can be toxic but it has its use in small amounts it seems.

Do what you will, but no amount of saying it has a beneficial use makes it so. No one has EVER shown it has a beneficial effect.

 

[ReefSymbiotic]

Do what you will, but no amount of saying it has a beneficial use makes it so. No one has EVER shown it has a beneficial effect.

Well upon looking it up it doesn’t seem there’s a ton of research on it other than for
Medical use and its toxicity in soluble form. There’s lots of things that haven’t been proven to be beneficial. Aluminum for one. Nickel for another. Should we just start tossing every trace element that hasn’t proven beneficial or is it better to mimic levels seen in seawater?

 

[rtparty]

Andre, is that you?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well upon looking it up it doesn’t seem there’s a ton of research on it other than for
Medical use and its toxicity in soluble form. There’s lots of things that haven’t been proven to be beneficial. Aluminum for one. Nickel for another. Should we just start tossing every trace element that hasn’t proven beneficial or is it better to mimic levels seen in seawater?

Nickel has many well proven uses by organisms, and it certainly may be worth maintaining. It is a critical element for the functioning of many enzymes.

You recommend dosing aluminum? Well, we can have the identical debate on it since it has no known biological role.

You asked:

"Should we just start tossing every trace element that hasn’t proven beneficial or is it better to mimic levels seen in seawater?"

and my answer is ABSOLUTELY ignore them. Do you realize how many elements you'd be monitoring and dosing? It would be an insane endeavor for a hobbyist.

Here's a list of what you would need to dose and monitor (or, keep from rising above natural levels, which might be harder than dosing):

Actinium,
Aluminum,
Americium,
Antimony,
Argon,
Arsenic,
Astatine,
Barium,
Berkelium,
Beryllium,
Bismuth,
Bohrium,
Boron,
Bromine,
Cadmium,
Calcium,
Californium,
Carbon,
Cerium,
Cesium,
Chlorine,
Chromium,
Cobalt,
Copernicium,
Copper,
Curium,
Darmstadtium,
Dubnium,
Dysprosium,
Einsteinium,
Erbium,
Europium,
Fermium,
Flerovium,
Fluorine,
Francium,
Gadolinium,
Gallium,
Germanium,
Gold,
Hafnium,
Hassium,
Helium,
Holmium,
Hydrogen,
Indium,
Iodine,
Iridium,
Iron,
Krypton,
Lanthanum,
Lawrencium,
Lead,
Lithium,
Livermorium,
Lutetium,
Magnesium,
Manganese,
Meitnerium,
Mendelevium,
Mercury,
Molybdenum,
Neodymium,
Neon,
Neptunium,
Nickel,
Niobium,
Nitrogen,
Nobelium,
Oganesson,
Osmium,
Oxygen,
Palladium,
Phosphorus,
Platinum,
Plutonium,
Polonium,
Potassium,
Praseodymium,
Promethium,
Protactinium,
Radium,
Radon,
Rhenium,
Rhodium,
Roentgenium,
Rubidium,
Ruthenium,
Rutherfordium,
Samarium,
Scandium,
Seaborgium,
Selenium,
Silicon, Silver,
Sodium,
Strontium,
Sulfur,
Tantalum,
Technetium,
Tellurium,
Terbium,
Thallium,
Thorium,
Thulium,
Tin,
Titanium,
Tungsten,
Uranium,
Vanadium,
Xenon,
Ytterbium,
Yttrium,
Zinc,
Zirconium

 

[ReefSymbiotic]

Nickel has many well proven uses by organisms, and it certainly may be worth maintaining. It is a critical element for the functioning of many enzymes.

You recommend dosing aluminum? Well, we can have the identical debate on it since it has no known biological role.

You asked:

"Should we just start tossing every trace element that hasn’t proven beneficial or is it better to mimic levels seen in seawater?"

and my answer is ABSOLUTELY ignore them. Do you realize how many elements you'd be monitoring and dosing? It would be an insane endeavor for a hobbyist.

Here's a list of what you would need to dose and monitor (or, keep from rising above natural levels, which might be harder than dosing):

Actinium,
Aluminum,
Americium,
Antimony,
Argon,
Arsenic,
Astatine,
Barium,
Berkelium,
Beryllium,
Bismuth,
Bohrium,
Boron,
Bromine,
Cadmium,
Calcium,
Californium,
Carbon,
Cerium,
Cesium,
Chlorine,
Chromium,
Cobalt,
Copernicium,
Copper,
Curium,
Darmstadtium,
Dubnium,
Dysprosium,
Einsteinium,
Erbium,
Europium,
Fermium,
Flerovium,
Fluorine,
Francium,
Gadolinium,
Gallium,
Germanium,
Gold,
Hafnium,
Hassium,
Helium,
Holmium,
Hydrogen,
Indium,
Iodine,
Iridium,
Iron,
Krypton,
Lanthanum,
Lawrencium,
Lead,
Lithium,
Livermorium,
Lutetium,
Magnesium,
Manganese,
Meitnerium,
Mendelevium,
Mercury,
Molybdenum,
Neodymium,
Neon,
Neptunium,
Nickel,
Niobium,
Nitrogen,
Nobelium,
Oganesson,
Osmium,
Oxygen,
Palladium,
Phosphorus,
Platinum,
Plutonium,
Polonium,
Potassium,
Praseodymium,
Promethium,
Protactinium,
Radium,
Radon,
Rhenium,
Rhodium,
Roentgenium,
Rubidium,
Ruthenium,
Rutherfordium,
Samarium,
Scandium,
Seaborgium,
Selenium,
Silicon, Silver,
Sodium,
Strontium,
Sulfur,
Tantalum,
Technetium,
Tellurium,
Terbium,
Thallium,
Thorium,
Thulium,
Tin,
Titanium,
Tungsten,
Uranium,
Vanadium,
Xenon,
Ytterbium,
Yttrium,
Zinc,
Zirconium

Lol you know what I mean. Half of those aren’t even mined and a good amount isn’t available to the public.

 

[ReefSymbiotic]

Nickel has many well proven uses by organisms, and it certainly may be worth maintaining. It is a critical element for the functioning of many enzymes.

You recommend dosing aluminum? Well, we can have the identical debate on it since it has no known biological role.

You asked:

"Should we just start tossing every trace element that hasn’t proven beneficial or is it better to mimic levels seen in seawater?"

and my answer is ABSOLUTELY ignore them. Do you realize how many elements you'd be monitoring and dosing? It would be an insane endeavor for a hobbyist.

Here's a list of what you would need to dose and monitor (or, keep from rising above natural levels, which might be harder than dosing):

Actinium,
Aluminum,
Americium,
Antimony,
Argon,
Arsenic,
Astatine,
Barium,
Berkelium,
Beryllium,
Bismuth,
Bohrium,
Boron,
Bromine,
Cadmium,
Calcium,
Californium,
Carbon,
Cerium,
Cesium,
Chlorine,
Chromium,
Cobalt,
Copernicium,
Copper,
Curium,
Darmstadtium,
Dubnium,
Dysprosium,
Einsteinium,
Erbium,
Europium,
Fermium,
Flerovium,
Fluorine,
Francium,
Gadolinium,
Gallium,
Germanium,
Gold,
Hafnium,
Hassium,
Helium,
Holmium,
Hydrogen,
Indium,
Iodine,
Iridium,
Iron,
Krypton,
Lanthanum,
Lawrencium,
Lead,
Lithium,
Livermorium,
Lutetium,
Magnesium,
Manganese,
Meitnerium,
Mendelevium,
Mercury,
Molybdenum,
Neodymium,
Neon,
Neptunium,
Nickel,
Niobium,
Nitrogen,
Nobelium,
Oganesson,
Osmium,
Oxygen,
Palladium,
Phosphorus,
Platinum,
Plutonium,
Polonium,
Potassium,
Praseodymium,
Promethium,
Protactinium,
Radium,
Radon,
Rhenium,
Rhodium,
Roentgenium,
Rubidium,
Ruthenium,
Rutherfordium,
Samarium,
Scandium,
Seaborgium,
Selenium,
Silicon, Silver,
Sodium,
Strontium,
Sulfur,
Tantalum,
Technetium,
Tellurium,
Terbium,
Thallium,
Thorium,
Thulium,
Tin,
Titanium,
Tungsten,
Uranium,
Vanadium,
Xenon,
Ytterbium,
Yttrium,
Zinc,
Zirconium

Either way, it’s been good talking I appreciate the insight regardless if I “fully” agree or not. Such talks are beneficial to everyone.