DIY LED Headache

[stevenhman]

I've read a lot of mixed information out there...it seems like some people are being paid by Cree to only answer questions relating to that brand of LED's - anywho...

I'd like to light a 260 gallon paludarium (5 ft l x 28in w x 36in h) with some nice, dimmable (via the Reef Angel) LED lighting. The 2 glass panes on top will each be 26.5 x 22.

I know(/think) that running the Bridgelux LED's (from aquastyleonline) will take somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-90 LED's.

I'm pretty much stuck on how many LED's (60 or 80 degree optics?) I would need and then what drivers to use (trying to use the minimum safe amount of drivers per LED - 120w LED Driver | Power Supply ?)

I know that this isn't a reek tank and I couldn't really contribute much when it comes to the club itself - but I wouldn't mind paying the annual dues or helping out in some way where I can.

Thanks!
-Steven

 

[gmoney243]

If its for fish only and ur not planning to ever do corals it wouldn't take but like 36 leds top to light it for fish. aquastyleonline drivers run 20 leds. so id say get a 36 kit but I don't think those led drivers are capable of being dimmed through a controller but I'm not sure why ud have to research that. And there's also no need for optics.

Well second thought in a 36" tall tank u might want optics but it wouldn't really matter which of those 2 just use what comes with the kit. The reason we use so many amd optics are for high par to grow corals. There's also some cheap led fixture meant just for fish only u might wanna look up.

 

[mixer911]

Its really going to depend on 2 factors to deceide what to use. How far down in the tank are the plants going to be (position of plants) and what type of plants (light requirements). The main reason for optics is to focus the light, think of it as a focus point. So for stuff on the bottom or 10" or less from the bottom, I would use 60 or 40 degree optics. You really want that focused down. Then along the back row where stuff is on the back of the glass up high you could use none, since you want the light to spread out.

As far as LEDs and drivers, thats really up to you. For drivers I would use Mean Well ELN-60-48D dimmable driver For 90 LEDs you will need at least 6 drivers. The problem with using one driver for more that 16 LEDs is you have to start making series/parallel strings and this gets tricky and you can fry all the LEDs if not done correctly. You will have more control of the color and look with more balasts also.

 

[pickupman66]

I agree with the color control you get with more Drivers. I have two types of drivers on my tank. 1x of the meanwell ELN-60-48d. it is running two strings of 12 LED's in parallel. each string has a 1 amp fuse so if one goes down it will pop the fuse and not blow up all the LED's. I also have some Thomas research Dimmable drivers. they are the same as the inventronics. each of them is a variable voltage with a constant 700mA. they each power 12 LED's. I have 4 of them.

What I DISLIKE about the meanwell is it will not turn on without at least 0.98 volts. the TRP ones will come on at their brightest unless you put in a POT to dim them or a controller. I dont know much about the reef angel controllers but I do know that the Meanwell drivers require a high amperage on the dimming circuit.

when researching things for my drivers when I bought my system, I emailed Meanwell regarding this. Here is the response I got. I can PM you the details of the person that emailed me this because im not sure if I need to post his information.

"After some tests at full load 1.3A and 10v dc power source input to the dimming wires, I found that the output to the dimming wire is ~0.5ma .And at 700ma output load the dimming wire output current is ~0.45ma. I hope this information helps. Feel free to email or call if there are any further questions thank you. "

 

[Reefer5060]

I too am in the headache, i am in the middle of the led build right now check my 40 breeder thread, and I'll probably do a thread or at least make a document of DIY led for my self and anyone taking things from technical language to understandable language. The guys in the club have been the best resource I have had. I looked at the aqua style kits, and there are a million forums on bridge lux LEDs vs Cree. I personally went with Cree because that's what all the information pertaining to reef tanks has been documented with. I also chose Cree because the bins are tested and recorded so you can get an approximate idea of what color range each group of LEDs produce will emit. The aqua style kits from what I understood from the emails that I received from them saying that they knew the batch and approximate color temp but when I was doing the research before I bought I just couldn't find data on them to sway me from paying the extra money for the Cree kit. There are threads all over the Internet about the Cree vs bridgelux death match just google it. If you have plants I did find a couple threads with specifics on build I think it was planted tank ???? Maybe but main thing is find what spectrum you need and buy accordingly you don't want to spend the money make the kit and the watch everything die. Just my newb .02

 

[stevenhman]

Thanks for the input everyone. It's good to know that I probably won't be needing 90 LED's hahaha!

The water portion of the tank is roughly going to be 40gallons (8 inches high), with half of that volume being under the false bottom (false bottom = egg crate wrapped in screen & supported by PVC pipes). The only fish I've considered putting in there are dwarf pencilfish (to stay with my Peru theme - and water with high tannins). It will house a group of A. pepperi 'orangehead' that I have. I am trying to simulate a slow jungle stream. There will be lots of plants (mainly larger leafed aroids, some epiphytic ferns, creeping plants [macgarvia sp.], philodendron - etc.) so the lighting doesn't need to be insane - maybe the LED equivalent to 4 T5HO 54w bulbs, which was my first thought.

That's great advice on the dimmable drivers - as well as the optics suggestion.

I need 6500k - 6700k LED's - maybe a string of ~4k thrown in to help with the sunrise/sunset effect.

If I went with 4 of the meanwell drivers I could get a total of 60 led's and only take up 4 plugs in what is basically a DC8. (?) Could these be run in series or would I have to make parallel strings? I know how to wire things in series...but parallel strings to me sounds like astrophysics.

The tank is going to be build out of hardwood pywood, all the joints epoxied and (probably) glassed, then with a coating of Liquid Rubber & the reinforcement fabric (we have to move at least 2 or 3 more times). It will have front opening sliding doors (1/8in doors) which rest on 1/2in glass that spans the front of the tank. The right side panel will have 3/8in glass. I'm going to make a rock background etc. with carved foam coated in tinted Drylok.

 

[pickupman66]

When I said Parallel strings, I meant two trings of 12 that are wired in series each. so make two regualr strings of 12, put a fuse in each and then connect them both to the proper wires from teh meanwell. IE. two parallel strings. I would go with 80° optics now knowing what you are doing.

 

[stevenhman]

Ahh. That makes a bit more sense.

So, I guess I'm looking at 48 (to 60?) 3w Bridgelux LED's w/ 80 degree optics - and 4 of the Thomas Research/Inventronics drivers?

Can a 120w driver power 30 LED's? 2 parallel strings w/ fuses?

So what's the regular LED-help fee around here? A case of beer?

 

[pickupman66]

Help here is always free. But ill take the beer:beer:
As for the wattage, on mine a 52 volt x 700mA = ~36 watts =12 leds.

 

[stevenhman]

Hrm. The specs on this driver (120w LED Driver | Power Supply) say:

"You can also run 3 parallel strings of 16 CREE XP-G/E LEDs for a total of 48 LEDs on one driver"

and in the details it lists the other info

"Max output voltage: 16-57v ; LEDs: 10-16 XM-L LEDs in series at 2100mA "

Since the Bridgelux are 700mA... I could do 30 on each 120w driver? I'd rather have too many LED's and dim them down rather than not have enough.

Looking at your numbers, vs. the numbers on the website for the driver - it doesn't seem like the claim of 48 LED's is correct...(?)

 

[gmoney243]

one side note is all ur drivers can attach to the same plug so you dont need to have 4 plugs u can reduce it down to by colors or even just all in 1 plug if u want all the lights to come on at same time. my bridgelux with maxwellen drivers runs 3 on 1 plug for blue and 2 drivers on one plug for whites. there is a limit of course to how many drivers can go on one plug but its still quite a few. bill or rick probly know the exact numbers all involved figuring that out.

also sounds like a nice tank the fee is to invite us over for a look when u are done

 

[stevenhman]

Ahh.

Yep, I would - it's gonna take a while though. If the liquid rubber freezes during shipping it's useless so I gotta wait a while to order that. Gotta build a workbench first - hopefully this weekend!

 

[stevenhman]

Other tank sold. Workbench long since built. Tons of stuff in route to my house in the mail. Liquid Rubber ordered (no freeing, yay!)

I was thinking about ordering the 72 DIY kit from aquastyle online (http://www.aquastyleonline.com/products/72--LEDs--DIY-Dimmable-Kit.html still cheaper than Cree's). My question is, what are parallel strings? Are they just a longer 'string' of LED's wired +,-,+,- ? The website recommends (for the Meanwell Drivers) "suggest connection: 3 strings of 12 LEDs in parallel on each driver" - Does that basically mean wire 36 LED's together in one long parallel string?

Also, since these LED's max out at 700mA it would probably be a good idea to open up the driver and adjust the internal pot down a bit under 700mA? And for fuses, should I get a 800mA (or 700mA) quick-blow? If anyone wants to volunteer to help me wire things - there is a case of beer/handle with your name on it, hahaha.

Thanks!

P.S. I know the driver that comes with the LED's is cuttin it pretty close (in regards to wattage) - I've heard that you get the best dimming results (lower cutoff/flicker) when this is done.

 

[gmoney243]

parallel is different .. wiring all together is wiring in a series.

 

[stevenhman]

Ahh thanks Mike - I had to google image an example of that (probably should've done it in the first place!)

And thank you google! DIY Knowhow: Wiring LED's in Parallel - Marine Engineers

 

[NeveSSL]

If you're just doing plants, Steven, optics may be way, way overkill. Optics are generally for help penetrating deep into tanks... IE, through water. Since this is just air, you probably won't need to focus the light. LEDs are BRIGHT. They technically have an optic already built in, which is usually around 100 to 120 degree if I'm not mistaken. So unless your plants need twice the light as corals, you could use fewer LEDs without optics and get the same coverage and plenty of light to your plants without wasting money.

Having said that, I know you said you would rather have too many and dim them down. The advantage to that is that they would last longer. But lets admit it... how many of us actually keep a tank up and running for more than a few years, of any type of tank? Not many. On top of that, technology in LEDs is changing so fast, you'll probably want to invest in something else before too long, anyway.

If nothing else, don't order them and try it and add them later if you think you need them. They're easy to add (for the most part... some of them can be a pain depending on the design).

Brandon

 

[stevenhman]

Haha, thanks Brandon. I've tried to get some answers as to the "How many" question, but as soon as I wasn't going to use Cree's the answers stopped.

So, do you think something like the 36 kit would be enough? (edit. maybe 48 so I could nearly max out 2 drivers - only 2 dimming channels on my controller) I knew I had a range of 20-80. Since I've been told that the fancy-pants XM-L's are 'worth' 3 of the bridgelux I tried to use what I could find from other builds (albeit planted tanks w/ Cree) and apply the x3. I figured that I may or may not need the optics - I would just have to see once I got the basic fixture completed. Maybe on the outside row(s) (on the sides facing glass) to help reduce crazy light spillage?

 

[gmoney243]

people are knuckleheads bro i use bridgelux and im happy with them. my corals look better than when i was using ATI T5s. im not sure how many LED u need but as brandon said im sure not to many just for a planted tank with no water. i wouldnt do optics either. you might actually get better answers for this on a horticulture forum or a forums where they grow other stuff if u know what i mean haha.

 

[NeveSSL]

I think probably more than people being knuckleheads, people just don't know as much about Bridgelux. Its kind of like going to Wal Mart and asking someone if a Ford or an MG would be better. Most people simply don't know that much about them.

I don't know very much about them, either, other than A) Mike uses them and loves them and B) they were used in some of the earliest LED lights from 6 or 7 years ago.

Brandon

 

[poolkeeper1]

Haha, thanks Brandon. I've tried to get some answers as to the "How many" question, but as soon as I wasn't going to use Cree's the answers stopped.

So, do you think something like the 36 kit would be enough? (edit. maybe 48 so I could nearly max out 2 drivers - only 2 dimming channels on my controller) I knew I had a range of 20-80. Since I've been told that the fancy-pants XM-L's are 'worth' 3 of the bridgelux I tried to use what I could find from other builds (albeit planted tanks w/ Cree) and apply the x3. I figured that I may or may not need the optics - I would just have to see once I got the basic fixture completed. Maybe on the outside row(s) (on the sides facing glass) to help reduce crazy light spillage?

On the Optics question IME if you do not use them the Par levels will be much lower in general as the Led will not be as focused downward as with using Optics. JMO I saw a great decrease in Par with out any optics...
Bill