Do all sumps eventually overflow ?

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

*disregard... this is the same thread you posted already...


Read through this thread. It discusses some of the problems with check valves...

Thread 'Sump return check valve?' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/sump-return-check-valve.249871/

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I found this in another thread. This reefer is saying what I believe they told me.

From this thread :

Sump return check valve?

Currently I'm only running a fairly new 29 Gallon DT on day 11 but we are planning on going 75+ within 6 months. I have been doing a lot of research before setting up a sump. I'm fairly certain I'm going to build the baffle system in a standard tank and whatnot. I've been looking into return...

www.reef2reef.com

I have pretty much made up my mind and should give the go ahead on Monday to start the build. BUT… I am still indecisive about having a check valve installed (I am now looking at the very expensive WYE check valve (144$ CAD) and also having a siphon break drilled.

For the siphon break I guess I can wait until installation day, but I need to decide before that for the check valve.

I keep going back and forth. Yes. No. Yes. I’m going mad, lol !

Lol, I just posted the same thread as a good place to learn about problems with check valves.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Here's what you need to do:
1. Determine the maximum amount of water the sump can hold.
2. figure out how much water (in gallons) will be in the sump while the tank is running.
3.Calculate the volume of your overflow box.
4. Calculate how many gallons each inch of tank height contains Don't worry about subtraction for sand or rock.
*For example, in theory, on a 90 gallon tank that's 24 inches tall, each of the 24 inches of height contains 1/24 of the tank water. 90/24=3.75 gallons.

Add the amount in steps 2 and 3, and subtract from step 1. This is the amount of siphoned tank water the sump can hold. *
Divide this by step 4 and that's how many inches below the water line your return nozzle can be without flooding the sump.

* if desired, also subtract the volume of your overflow reservoir to the sump before dividing.

 

[Idech]

Here's what you need to do:
1. Determine the maximum amount of water the sump can hold.
2. figure out how much water (in gallons) will be in the sump while the tank is running.
3.Calculate the volume of your overflow box.
4. Calculate how many gallons each inch of tank height contains Don't worry about subtraction for sand or rock.
*For example, in theory, on a 90 gallon tank that's 24 inches tall, each of the 24 inches of height contains 1/24 of the tank water. 90/24=3.75 gallons.

Add the amount in steps 2 and 3, and subtract from step 1. This is the amount of siphoned tank water the sump can hold. *
Divide this by step 4 and that's how many inches below the water line your return nozzle can be without flooding the sump.

* if desired, also subtract the volume of your overflow reservoir to the sump before dividing.

They did the math for me yesterday when we spoke.

We decided on how much water my ATO reservoir would hold (8 gallons), they calculated the water in circulation and in the plumbing that would overflow, added 8 gallons to that and it came out to 13.5 gallons if I remember correctly (I wrote it down somewhere).

We increased the dimensions of the sump to 36x22x15 high to contain that volume. Now the sump can hold 18 gallons of overflow, so almost 5 gallons more than needed.

I did that following your advice and this has given me a lot of reassurance.

The only thing that gives me anxiety now, is that I still haven’t decided on what to do to prevent a fail if I forget to keep both my nozzles just under the water surface. If I push them down to far, and they overflow for more than the sump capacity.

This is why I’m still trying to decide if the siphon break or the WYE check valve are the right solutions.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

They did the math for me yesterday when we spoke.

We decided on how much water my ATO reservoir would hold (8 gallons), they calculated the water in circulation and in the plumbing that would overflow, added 8 gallons to that and it came out to 13.5 gallons if I remember correctly (I wrote it down somewhere).

We increased the dimensions of the sump to 36x22x15 high to contain that volume. Now the sump can hold 18 gallons of overflow, so almost 5 gallons more than needed.

I did that following your advice and this has given me a lot of reassurance.

The only thing that gives me anxiety now, is that I still haven’t decided on what to do to prevent a fail if I forget to keep both my nozzles just under the water surface. If I push them down to far, and they overflow for more than the sump capacity.

This is why I’m still trying to decide if the siphon break or the WYE check valve are the right solutions.

Well, the chance of your ATO going haywire in the same period of time as a power outage is pretty low, so really you have that extra 8 gallons as a buffer as well.

And in my other post, the result you get when you calculate the amount of water per inch of tank height, that will actually be less since your tank won't actually contain 120 gallons of water...

I think you'll be fine

(You can also construct the inside of the stand to be able to contain some water... )

 

[Idech]

(You can also construct the inside of the stand to be able to contain some water... )

Thanks !

They sent me a basic 3-D image of the stand and I noticed there was a hollow space inside. I meant to ask them about that. Maybe that’s what it is.

 

[Uncle99]

An ATO would be the most likely cause of a sump overflow.
I prevent from that with triple redundancy in my ATO.
In addition to the normal optical sensor and secondary mechanical safety sensor, I plug my ATO into a $20 dollar multi timer which only allows power to the ATO for 1 minute every hour.
With this in place, all three things must fail at once for any overflow.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Thanks !

They sent me a basic 3-D image of the stand and I noticed there was a hollow space inside. I meant to ask them about that. Maybe that’s what it is.

Yeah, the stand I got for my first tank had nothing on the back to keep things from rolling/falling out (it had a back brace, but otherwise nothing between the floor of the stand and the edge). Got some PVC molding/trim and added it to the back, caulked it, and voila, problem solved!

 

[Idech]

An ATO would be the most likely cause of a sump overflow.
I prevent from that with triple redundancy in my ATO.
In addition to the normal optical sensor and secondary mechanical safety sensor, I plug my ATO into a $20 dollar multi timer which only allows power to the ATO for 1 minute every hour.
With this in place, all three things must fail at once for any overflow.

I love this ! Where did you buy it ? Do you have a link ?

Got some PVC molding/trim and added it to the back, caulked it, and voila, problem solved!

That’s smart, I’ll see what they can suggest.

 

[Daddio64]

I also put a 1way valve on the return side. The return is lower in my setup so that is where the siphon drags the most water from. I also shut down my return when I feed so less food ends up in the sump. Shut down skimmer for 6 minutes, return for 5 and hit wave maker feed which cuts them down to 5% for 5 minutes. I only feed once a day.

 

[Idech]

I also put a 1way valve on the return side. The return is lower in my setup so that is where the siphon drags the most water from. I also shut down my return when I feed so less food ends up in the sump. Shut down skimmer for 6 minutes, return for 5 and hit wave maker feed which cuts them down to 5% for 5 minutes. I only feed once a day.

How long have you had it ? How much maintenance do you do to it ?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

That’s smart, I’ll see what they can suggest.

My current stand has a lip around the inside edge. It's nice just for regular maintenance... if I spill some water refilling the ATO reservoir or fling water all over the place when I'm cleaning the skimmer, I don't worry about it running onto the floor before I can wipe it up.

 

[Uncle99]

I love this ! Where did you buy it ? Do you have a link ?


That’s smart, I’ll see what they can suggest.

This timer off Amazon.
It can be programmed down to short intervals like a minute.

Example:
In my case, my ATO filled a bit every 15 minutes, for 20 seconds.

So my timer comes on every hour for 60 seconds, almost mimicking the ATO.

So even when the optical eye fails (and it will) the timer keeps things stable and there’s still the mechanical if everything fails.

In my case, my RODI holding unit is 40gallons, enough for a full week, and my sump is 40g and say half full when running. So if try ATO went rogue, it certainly would result in a flood.

The timer makes the ATO virtually bulliet proof in its operation.

Of course this is only necessary when ATO is more than half the sump, but even catching and error early can save your system.

My timer running 5 years now and within that time, I replaced the optical sensor twice., so 2 potential saves.

 

[Daddio64]

How long have you had it ? How much maintenance do you do to it ?

This setup has been going about a year. I had to take a little hiatus from the hobby for a few years but the last setup which was similar but ran to the basement was up about 12 years. As far as maintenance daily checks just to make sure everything is flowing sump isn't going dry top off if necessary. I make ro-di water couple times a month. Water shanges 10-15% when necessary with checks, use exaqua testing every weekend add chemicals weekends. I use a roller for a sock which helps a lot. I'll try to post a picture later. It's an under the tank setup now.

 

[Idech]

This setup has been going about a year. I had to take a little hiatus from the hobby for a few years but the last setup which was similar but ran to the basement was up about 12 years. As far as maintenance daily checks just to make sure everything is flowing sump isn't going dry top off if necessary. I make ro-di water couple times a month. Water shanges 10-15% when necessary with checks, use exaqua testing every weekend add chemicals weekends. I use a roller for a sock which helps a lot. I'll try to post a picture later. It's an under the tank setup now.

Thanks. Any maintenance routine for the check valve itself ?

 

[RedReefer]

No

 

[Idech]

We finalized the last details today and I’m very happy with the design. A siphon break will be added to prevent overflow if I even push the outlets too far into the water.

Now I need to start a new build thread !

 

[jsker]

I plumbed in a drain for an overflow and to drain the some of water if need for cleaning or to much water. Circled in red. I cost me about $40 do plumb it all in. I rented a drill and drilled through the block to have the drain run to the outside.

I had the same fears as you when I added my sump. The overflow drain has saved me a couple of times

 

[dowdalld]

Can you post pictures of the siphon break in your system ? Just so I can get a better idea.

If anybody else has pictures of siphon breaks, I’d like to see them too.

So here's mine, more than a hole drilled in the return it serves two purposes.

A tee placed before the return is reduced to ⅜in tubing with a valve. The end of the tubing is above the waterline, the yellow circle. When the valve is open there is a continuous silent trickle of water which prevents any salt creep causing a blockage. When my return pump turns off the siphon is broken immediately and apart from the water in the return line nothing is back-siphoned from the tank.
When the valve is closed and I turn off my return pump the tank back-siphons about 2 inches of water to the sump, I have set the depth of my return outlet to back-siphon the correct amount of water for my water change.
IMHO, if all is setup correctly there is no need for check valves or non-return valves.
Hope it helps.

 

[Idech]

So here's mine, more than a hole drilled in the return it serves two purposes.

A tee placed before the return is reduced to ⅜in tubing with a valve. The end of the tubing is above the waterline, the yellow circle. When the valve is open there is a continuous silent trickle of water which prevents any salt creep causing a blockage. When my return pump turns off the siphon is broken immediately and apart from the water in the return line nothing is back-siphoned from the tank.
When the valve is closed and I turn off my return pump the tank back-siphons about 2 inches of water to the sump, I have set the depth of my return outlet to back-siphon the correct amount of water for my water change.
IMHO, if all is setup correctly there is no need for check valves or non-return valves.
Hope it helps.

I think that’s what they are going to do. Or very similar. Thanks!