Do all sumps eventually overflow ?

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I’m having a bean animal installed, with a check valve on the return pump.

Do not rely on a check valve. They are not infallible. Make sure you have a siphon break at the highest point on the return plumbing so it does not drain too much back into your tank.

 

[Idech]

Do not rely on a check valve. They are not infallible. Make sure you have a siphon break at the highest point on the return plumbing so it does not drain too much back into your tank.

What’s a siphon break ? A piece of equipment or a drilled hole somewhere ?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

What’s a siphon break ? A piece of equipment or a drilled hole somewhere ?

A hole.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Post in thread 'Question on anti syphon valve...' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/question-on-anti-syphon-valve.975206/post-11219281

 

[KrisReef]

I’ve had sumpless fish tanks for more than 40 years and I am now in the process of upgrading to a 120 + 30 tank. With sump. I’ve never had a sump and I’m terrified of the system overflowing onto my floor, one day.

I’m doing a lot of research and the more I read, the more terrified I become. So tell me, have you ever had a sump dump onto your floor ?

My system would be as « idiot proof » as possible, but still. From what I read, it’s impossible to prevent 100% of system failures.

Thanks for your input !

Yes, they can only hold a certain amount of water and then they will overflow. If you have a sump bigger than the water volume in the system then you technically have a containment that could be flooded but not overflowing if all the tank water siphons into the sump.

The real amazing flooding happens when an automatic filling device (top off or automatic water changer) kicks on and puts more water into the system than the system can hold. That’s an epic situation.

Happens now and then, it has since Noah’s flood but His was the ultimate overflowing disaster in history.

A good design can only reduce the likelihood of a catastrophe but with effort your nightmare will come true.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Yes, they can only hold a certain amount of water and then they will overflow. If you have a sump bigger than the water volume in the system then you technically have a containment that could be flooded but not overflowing if all the tank water siphons into the sump.

The real amazing flooding happens when an automatic filling device (top off or automatic water changer) kicks on and puts more water into the system than the system can hold. That’s an epic situation.

Happens now and then, it has since Noah’s flood but His was the ultimate overflowing disaster in history.

A good design can only reduce the likelihood of a catastrophe but with effort your nightmare will come true.

My sump can hold the volume of my ATO reservoir as well as the water in the overflow box, and the amount siphoned by the return line. Unless the overflow box springs a leak, I'm good.

 

[Mikeltee]

Make sure that you understand the concept of a siphon first. You can also size your ATO that if your failsafes fail and your return is off, you will still be under capacity.

 

[Idech]

The real amazing flooding happens when an automatic filling device (top off or automatic water changer) kicks on and puts more water into the system than the system can hold. That’s an epic situation.

I have been using an ATO for two years so I’m kind of used to them. You do need to keep an eye on them for sure.

A good design can only reduce the likelihood of a catastrophe but with effort your nightmare will come true.

This is not helping me, but thanks.

Make sure that you understand the concept of a siphon first. You can also size your ATO that if your failsafes fail and your return is off, you will still be under capacity.

I will try, thanks. I need to read more about the siphon because it remains a mystery to me. I don’t understand how it really works.

My sump can hold the volume of my ATO reservoir as well as the water in the overflow box, and the amount siphoned by the return line. Unless the overflow box springs a leak, I'm good.

That’s what I need ! I will make sure that’s what I have.

 

[Mikeltee]

I have been using an ATO for two years so I’m kind of used to them. You do need to keep an eye on them for sure.


This is not helping me, but thanks.


I will try, thanks. I need to read more about the siphon because it remains a mystery to me. I don’t understand how it really works.


That’s what I need ! I will make sure that’s what I have.

Siphon is a simple concept really. When you lose power to your return, the tank will drain first through the overflow and then through your return pump. If will keep draining until the return nozzle sucks air. You must position the highest point of the nozzle so that the draining stops before your sump is full. I stop it at the point to where there is 6 gallons of capacity left in the sump. I use a 5g ATO reservoir. If worse comes to worse, I would only have 1g of capacity left in my sump. ATO failure has never happened to me. I use the Neptune Apex system that has both a high electrical water sensor as well as a mechanical float valve to stop the flow.

 

[Idech]

Siphon is a simple concept really. When you lose power to your return, the tank will drain first through the overflow and then through your return pump. If will keep draining until the return nozzle sucks air. You must position the highest point of the nozzle so that the draining stops before your sump is full. I stop it at the point to where there is 6 gallons of capacity left in the sump. I use a 5g ATO reservoir. If worse comes to worse, I would only have 1g of capacity left in my sump. ATO failure has never happened to me. I use the Neptune Apex system that has both a high electrical water sensor as well as a mechanical float valve to stop the flow.

Thanks, that helps ! The guys I buy the tank from have already showed me how to aim the nozzle in the tank. It’s starting to make more sense.

 

[exnisstech]

I’m having a bean animal installed, with a check valve on the return pump.

I would pass on the check valve. I know many people use them but if the sump is set up correctly they are totally unnecessary. They introduce a point of failure and need to be cleaned. JMO having three systems running with sumps none having check valves.

EDIT : as @EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal stated my sump can also accommodate the entire volume of my ato container without overflowing. I think I spent more time researching sump design than any other part of the system when I first got started in the hobby. Big sump with small return chamber to prevent overflow at top or bottom.

 

[Idech]

I would pass on the check valve. I know many people use them but if the sump is set up correctly they are totally unnecessary. They introduce a point of failure and need to be cleaned. JMO having three systems running with sumps none having check valves.

EDIT : as @EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal stated my sump can also accommodate the entire volume of my ato container without overflowing. I think I spent more time researching sump design than any other part of the system when I first got started in the hobby. Big sump with small return chamber to prevent overflow at top or bottom.

Okay, I’ll take that into consideration. An unnecessary point of failure is not appealing. Thanks !

 

[TheSheff]

No. As long as it is setup correctly, AND drains kept clean. Snails have been known to block drains. But that floods the tank, not the sump.

that issue can be fixed with a small float valve in the tank too, I have one that is surrounded by pvc so that even that cant be messed up by snails.

 

[thecitadel]

Made the mistake when I put up my 220 with my old 40 gallon sump. Never back siphoned it to see. One day power went off and found out my return pump losses prime when that happens, so doesn't turn on. Came home to the main tank drained below the overflow box (9") and the sump completely flooded. Luckily, I do restoration, I have tile floor. Disinfected it, 2' flood cut on 1 wall (16' LF), disinfected the framing and dried it out.

Now I have a 120 sump and have drained more than half my tank into it, far beyond the overflow box just to be sure, as well as now run my main return on a solar battery backup.

 

[Idech]

I would pass on the check valve. I know many people use them but if the sump is set up correctly they are totally unnecessary. They introduce a point of failure and need to be cleaned.

Are they just useless if not maintained properly (that’s something I can live with) or can they cause problems (which ones) that wouldn’t happen if there wasn’t a check valve (that’s not something I want) ?

Thanks again for your help.

 

[exnisstech]

Are they just useless if not maintained properly (that’s something I can live with) or can they cause problems (which ones) that wouldn’t happen if there wasn’t a check valve (that’s not something I want) ?

Thanks again for your help.

They do need to be maintained or they can stick. I think a lot of people use them to prevent the tank level from getting low when the return pump is turned off to prevent water spraying when the pump is turned back on. I have a very strong return pump on one tank and I actually keep a piece of 1/4" plywood to lay on top of the tank when I turn the pump back on or my lights get wet. A check valve would prevent that. I wouldn't say don't use one but be prepared to maintain it if you choose to. I spent 35 years fixing broken, defective, and worn out things so I'm kinda funny when it comes to failure points because I look at everything as if it will fail I just don't know when that will be but most likely at an bad time cuz that's how it seems to go. I also won't use dosers or controllers so I may not be the person to listen too

 

[Jamie814]

I’m having a check valve installed in the overflow box. The whole set-up will be installed and tuned by professional.

Why are they installing a check valve in the overflow box? What would this do?

Check valves go on the return pump not drain lines.

 

[Idech]

My sump can hold the volume of my ATO reservoir as well as the water in the overflow box, and the amount siphoned by the return line. Unless the overflow box springs a leak, I'm good.

I talked to them just now and they did the math. The sump wouldn’t have been able to hold all of the ATO reservoir so they are going to make it a bit bigger. Now it will hold more than enough.

Why are they installing a check valve in the overflow box? What would this do?

Check valves go on the return pump not drain lines.

I’m just not explaining right for lack of experience and knowledge. I’m sure they’ll put it where it goes.

 

[Idech]

They do need to be maintained or they can stick. I think a lot of people use them to prevent the tank level from getting low when the return pump is turned off to prevent water spraying when the pump is turned back on. I have a very strong return pump on one tank and I actually keep a piece of 1/4" plywood to lay on top of the tank when I turn the pump back on or my lights get wet. A check valve would prevent that. I wouldn't say don't use one but be prepared to maintain it if you choose to. I spent 35 years fixing broken, defective, and worn out things so I'm kinda funny when it comes to failure points because I look at everything as if it will fail I just don't know when that will be but most likely at an bad time cuz that's how it seems to go. I also won't use dosers or controllers so I may not be the person to listen too

This is a wise attitude and I tend to be that way as well, even though I don’t repair much, lol. The check valve they are using is the one they talk about in the thread @EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal linked. It’s high quality, transparent and it can unscrew easily for maintenance (this thing is 60$).

I plan on cleaning it as part of a weekly or bi-weekly maintenance routine. I’m not completely certain I will have it installed though. Still reflecting on it.

 

[jda]

My sumps have never overflowed, but I made them big on purpose.

Flapper valve (sometimes called swinging check valve) is more reliable than a check valve but even they need replaced regularly. Anti siphon hole and sump large enough to handle the back drain are the best remedy. Make sure that they are on unions to be serviced or replaced if you intend to rely on one.