Do I Just Have Very Bad Luck Or Are A Majority Of Fish Infected?

Rams54

Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
27
Reaction score
39
Hello all, I'm not b-sing you. I have never quarantined any fish that I bought from my LFS and have only lost two fish (pink anthias) and that was because, I didn't read about them until it was too late. I finally read that they need to be fed a minimum of three times a day.
I told the owner of my lfs that I have not lost any fish that I have bought from him.
He told "That's because I QT all of the fish treated with copper". I guess I lucked out with my LFS. The only thing I buy from another store is; crabs and snails. I do not buy fish online, period end of story.
Also, I never buy a fish unless I see it eat, if it don't eat, it stays there. You can't see it eat online.
 

Manthanol

Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 27, 2018
Messages
45
Reaction score
31
Location
Dallas
My experience with LA hasn't been as bad as LFS. About half of my LA fish came with internal parasite but did not show any other symptoms. LFS experience has been a lot worse. My last 3 purchases from two LFS came down with velvet. I've never had any issues before with their fish but now I do. Seems to me the quality has suffered a lot for the last 2-3 years and now I just treat them prophylactic. As an example, last week I got 2 gobies from LFS, both looked great, got them to eat on the first day and CP went in on the second day. On the third day i noticed the fins were tattered and on the fourth day I noticed velvet(maybe it was there on the third day, hard to see on white gobies). The CP worked well and on day 5/6 the dusting disappeared. I also treat my LA arrivals with CP or copper ASAP.
 

ScottB

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 5, 2018
Messages
334
Reaction score
321
I am the part time coral person at my LFS. The owner's general take is that the wholesaler practices are actually a little better than past, but the local source supplier network to the wholesalers keeps getting shaken up and collection and shipping practices are bumpy.

He has stopped buying from all but one wholesaler who he believes maintains the best sourcing network. No dynamite. No cyanide. Best at expediting safely. It is the most expensive wholesaler, but net after mortality evens things out a little.

QT of probably 100 fish a week is logistically overwhelming. We keep one separate treatment tank for the obvious near casualties, but otherwise assume the fish have all been exposed to everything and focus instead on superb nutrition and stress reduction. Unless we know the customer is very competent, we hold tangs for 3 weeks before general sale.

Drip Acclimation is long because we keep 1.024 but they come from lower Sg.

So even though I don't QT fish (but then I don't buy much fish, and get my pick of the litter when I rarely do) it does suggest that where possible we should:

a) Assume they've all been exposed (IMO, they have) and QT.
b) Inspect fish closely and see them eat.
c) Ask where the fish are sourced from.
d) Ask how long the fish has been in the store.
e) Know what salinity the fish are in at LFS/other. Adjust acclimation accordingly.

My two cents. You just got what you paid for.
 
OP
Marco S

Marco S

Always Learning
View Badges
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
676
Reaction score
618
Location
Tucson
My two cents. You just got what you paid for.
Normally I would agree with that statement, but I paid over $2,000 for my fish from different LFS's and Divers Den and I still got diseases in almost every batch. The fish I bought from Petco for $19 - $39 were one of the few batches that did not have any sign of disease...
 

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
19,349
Reaction score
45,751
Location
Decatur, AL
Not all fish that have parasites are diseased. If someone sells a "disease free" fish, that only means it is showing no symptoms of a pathogen. A pathogen is something that can cause a disease but not all fish with pathogens are diseased. It may seem to be a play on words but it is an important concept.

A tank (or supply chain) full of healthy fish could be carrying pathogens. The stress from a heater failure, incompatible tankmates, or shipping can trigger that controlled pathogen to become a full fledged disease.

This thread reminds me I need to get to work finishing an article I've been working on....
 
Corals.com

HotRocks

Fish Fanatic!
View Badges
Joined
Oct 5, 2017
Messages
7,597
Reaction score
577,890,128
Location
Westfield, Indiana
Also Petco owns LA, the largest wholesaler on the west coast ships fish to petcos and fulfills LA Non DD orders. Many LFS also order from the same wholesaler so the source for fish is the same for many. Don't get wrong here there are other wholesalers on the west coast that also supply LFSs. There are plenty of wholesalers throughout the us some of which do have a bit more strict policy on how long fish are held before shipped, some use prazi etc.
 

lakai

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 22, 2018
Messages
197
Reaction score
182
Got my mini blue tang from Live Aquaria (1 inch juvinile). It is healthy with no signs of illness (3 mo). I didnt QT it and luckily it is thriving and it doesnt seem like it was ever infected. I think that, being a large supplier, LA probably keeps all fish lightly medicated to prevent a nightmare of, say, hundreds of Tangs dieing in one tank if one fish was infected. They have a lot to lose if vast numbers of fish die, which is why I assume that they are super cautious about illness.
I had one for 9 months bought from LA then ich came from no where. No new fish introduced with it since I had it. Just because you haven't seen signs don't get complacent and assume its disease free.
 

Reefthedayaway

Member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 7, 2019
Messages
74
Reaction score
123
Off topic here but can someone tell me how to do a new post? I can't see anything that says create post
Ignore this I found it.
 

ScottB

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 5, 2018
Messages
334
Reaction score
321
I had one for 9 months bought from LA then ich came from no where. No new fish introduced with it since I had it. Just because you haven't seen signs don't get complacent and assume its disease free.
Yeah, I tend to believe in the the theory that unless you QT every fish, every coral, every invert, every rock, every grain of sand... then you live with the assumption that there is Ich in your system. Lurking, just sustaining itself, waiting for a weak immune system to come along.
 
OP
Marco S

Marco S

Always Learning
View Badges
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
676
Reaction score
618
Location
Tucson
I had one for 9 months bought from LA then ich came from no where. No new fish introduced with it since I had it. Just because you haven't seen signs don't get complacent and assume its disease free.
I am never complacent and I assume everything is diseased and I treat them like it...it's just surprising that so many have actually been diseased. :(

Yeah, I tend to believe in the the theory that unless you QT every fish, every coral, every invert, every rock, every grain of sand... then you live with the assumption that there is Ich in your system. Lurking, just sustaining itself, waiting for a weak immune system to come along.
I did/do QT every fish, every coral, every invert and even my Algae and pods. I didn't QT my rock or sand, but I am pretty sure I can confidently say I do not have Ich in my system, (knocking on wood). :)
 
Corals.com

Victoria M

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
3,587
Reaction score
12,260
Location
Sylvania, OH
Diseases are pretty prevalent today. Many fish can live in tanks with parasites. The type of fish and the length of time the fish will tolerate it will depend upon several factors. Obviously nutrition, husbandry, chemistry, all play a role in the success. You can also run additional equipment to help control the free swimming population etc.

I see something in every LFS I walk into, I also see something on every single batch of fish I get in.

This is why I choose to prophylactically treat all of my fish.
Yes, the majority of fish are infected. IMO, all of them are infected.

You've got to go through a screening process before you even take a fish home.

Know what to look for:
*identify diseases, illnesses
*is the fish swimming and acting normal
*have the salesman feed it and watch how it eats/reacts to food

For me, nothing is more effective for common parasitic issues than a fresh water bath. Wait, A FRESHWATER BATH?! NO, YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS!!! Yeah, we will probably see some responses like that here...

I treat all of my quarantine fish with a F/W bath before they even go into my quarantine tank. It's absolutely effective but it can damage the fish if you overdo it. Plus, some fish are more sensitive to it than others. Those get a shorter bath.

Sensitive fish like Cardinals, wrasses,... bathe them for 1 to 1.5 minutes max. The rest, 3 minutes max and be prepared to bathe them again 48 hours later, but not before that.

Simply prepare a F/W bathing solution in an adequate sized container (large enough for the fish to rest upright and swim around in circles. First, make sure that the temp is close to where they are coming from as possible. Next, use PH buffer to raise the PH to the level that the quarantine tank is kept at. I use tap water with no ill effects. The fish are not in it long enough to hurt them but if you are concerned, use a simple declor agent before you place the fish in.

The reaction to the lower density F/W is alarming so be ready for that. They usually sink down and lay on their side as though they are dying but they are actually just adapting. Within several seconds, they are usually up and swimming around. Don't leave them in too long. Be careful.

Been doing this for over 30 years.
I feel the same way. I am repeating myself from my thread but I have been trying a new LFS. First several QTs went well, not the last 3. I had a seriously long talk with the owner yesterday and I appreciate his candid responses. We may not agree on all fronts. He called my a challenging customer. I read a lot and believe what I read on the internet. lol. I laughed and said I am descerning in what I believe and consult with physicians and pharmacist if I can, and try to apply what I know to fish husbandry. He does have 30 years experience as a fish wholesale importer and fish store owner, so I want to hear what he has to say.
His advise was to use safety stop and place my new fish into my DT. I SAID NO GO. He also gave me different instructions on the use of the Safety Stop than the package instructions.
This conversation did make be believe that the fish deaths I experienced were related to flukes and bacterial infections but my QT was focused on CI (cryptocaryon irritans/ich) and AO (amyloodinium ocellatum/velvet). Obviously proper diagnosis is key. The thing is the behavior of the fish sure seemed like early velvet. However, I suppose that heavy gill fluke infestation can make the fish behave very similiarly.
 

Victoria M

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
3,587
Reaction score
12,260
Location
Sylvania, OH
You misunderstood the problem. I am not, (knock on wood) having any problems with disease in my DT. I am having problems with the fish I buy having disease when I purchase them, but not showing signs until a day or two after i have them in my QT. I have successfully treated and cured a large majority of them and have only lost 2 fish to disease, but I am getting sick of dealing with disease and was just asking if this is a problem with others or am I particularly unlucky?

I do sterilize my QT tanks with bleach and or vinegar after every batch and have several different QT tanks going all in different rooms that are way more than 10 feet apart. I have followed all the rules outlines in the QT processes on this Forums so I do not believe it is my tanks that are the problem.
I do love when folks misread or misinterpret what you write...lol. I missed quoting your statements in my earlier posts and I wanted to let you know I share your observations, experiences and plans. I have not shared your successes exactly though, lately. LOL. I have begun a QT on a fox face lo so here goes nothin’
 

Victoria M

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
3,587
Reaction score
12,260
Location
Sylvania, OH
For those of you who have knowledge of which wholesalers currently provide the best fish, to either online stores or LFS, how does the average hobbyist determine or research where to purchase fish that use such and such wholesaler. I am wondering does the wholesaler mean more than the LFS, nowdays?
Not many hobbyists are on the supply end of the hobby and much of what happens on the supply end is a mystery to most hobbyists. I am from Ohio. I always think how can I locate a company that uses the best wholesaler? I hear vague references to most wholesalers but no concrete statements. Each of the LFS who will discuss the challenges they face have said flukes have been a problem. Does that likely mean they are using the same wholesaler?
I read all the articles on R2R on about this topic and have a theoretical idea on how this should work but in reality it is not panning out.
And don’t fish stores shop from all different wholesalers all the time just like we hobbyist shop all over?
 

HotRocks

Fish Fanatic!
View Badges
Joined
Oct 5, 2017
Messages
7,597
Reaction score
577,890,128
Location
Westfield, Indiana
For those of you who have knowledge of which wholesalers currently provide the best fish, to either online stores or LFS, how does the average hobbyist determine or research where to purchase fish that use such and such wholesaler. I am wondering does the wholesaler mean more than the LFS, nowdays?
Not many hobbyists are on the supply end of the hobby and much of what happens on the supply end is a mystery to most hobbyists. I am from Ohio. I always think how can I locate a company that uses the best wholesaler? I hear vague references to most wholesalers but no concrete statements. Each of the LFS who will discuss the challenges they face have said flukes have been a problem. Does that likely mean they are using the same wholesaler?
I read all the articles on R2R on about this topic and have a theoretical idea on how this should work but in reality it is not panning out.
And don’t fish stores shop from all different wholesalers all the time just like we hobbyist shop all over?
I would simply ask the LFS who they use if you are curious.

They are all different. Some stores transship, some use a wholesaler exclusively, some use several wholesalers and some use a mix of both.

There are a couple smaller distributers that have more of a treatment protocol and a longer hold time before they ship fish.

The large LA wholesalers are about the same. I can't say one is better than the other.

Their facilities are too large and have too much inbound and outbound traffic to have an exact protocol for each fish, sterilization etc. To many hands on deck to prevent cross contamination. Some fish may only be there a couple days while others may sit for weeks.

There isn't an easy solution or cure, so best thing you can do is observe your fish closely etc and treat with whatever/however you deem necessary.

They do have treatment tanks (they call them the sick tank) and will hold fish from shipment if there is a noticable moderate to severe issue that needs addressed.
 
Get Fish & Corals directly for the suppliers

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
19,349
Reaction score
45,751
Location
Decatur, AL

Victoria M

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
3,587
Reaction score
12,260
Location
Sylvania, OH
I would simply ask the LFS who they use if you are curious.

They are all different. Some stores transship, some use a wholesaler exclusively, some use several wholesalers and some use a mix of both.

There are a couple smaller distributers that have more of a treatment protocol and a longer hold time before they ship fish.

The large LA wholesalers are about the same. I can't say one is better than the other.

Their facilities are too large and have too much inbound and outbound traffic to have an exact protocol for each fish, sterilization etc. To many hands on deck to prevent cross contamination. Some fish may only be there a couple days while others may sit for weeks.

There isn't an easy solution or cure, so best thing you can do is observe your fish closely etc and treat with whatever/however you deem necessary.

They do have treatment tanks (they call them the sick tank) and will hold fish from shipment if there is a noticable moderate to severe issue that needs addressed.
Thank you! Why did I overlook that I should tag you with my questions? :) duh. LOL!
Around here it seems to be a trade secret. And each of them seem to think their supplier is superior.
 

Brew12

Electrical Gru
View Badges
Joined
Aug 14, 2016
Messages
19,349
Reaction score
45,751
Location
Decatur, AL
Thank you! Why did I overlook that I should tag you with my questions? :) duh. LOL!
Around here it seems to be a trade secret. And each of them seem to think their supplier is superior.
I wonder if they don't want you to find out that they all are using the same supplier.

I do feel that how the fish is received at the LFS plays a role. I was shocked when I saw how one LFS does it. The order comes in on a Wednesday morning. They temp acclimate on a cart (not sure for how long). Then they roll the cart to their sales floor, cut open the bags, scoop the fish out and sort them between their different tanks. An hour later the store opens and those fish are all still available.

All of the high demand fish are gone by Friday. I guess its a great business model for them because they get to minimize losses. They hardly have to feed any of them more than once.
 
Get Fish & Corals directly for the suppliers

Any special reefing plans for this week?

  • Yes

    Votes: 26 41.3%
  • No

    Votes: 27 42.9%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 10 15.9%

Online statistics

Members online
1,391
Guests online
3,872
Total visitors
5,263
MAXSPECT
Premium Algae Scrubbers from Turbo's Aquatics!
Top