Do New Born Babies Sleep in a King Size Bed

[ksfulk]

Back to the original question - I think a lot of the "rules" that are cited to people are aimed at newcomers to the hobby, and not those that have some experience with keeping and maintaining salt water creatures. We've all seen the guy who walks into a pet store, sees a "Nemo" and a "Dory" and then walks out 30 minutes later with a 10 gallon tank and a HOB filter and these fish. The always used excuse - "Oh, I'll upgrade soon" is old hack, and its been shown that most people dont stay in this hobby for more than a year. Its becomes so common that you just roll your eyes when hearing it again. In the end, if the fish are well cared for and then moved on to a different (assumed bigger) home, then there's no issue. Would I recommend it to the newest person to the hobby - Never. Perspective is always important

 

[zLaEcEh]

Where did you find them? @zlaech? My 7 year old would LOVE these. (By my 7 year old I actually mean me )

I will ask the wife.

 

[zLaEcEh]

Where did you find them? @zlaech? My 7 year old would LOVE these. (By my 7 year old I actually mean me )

My wife said they came from a store by our house called 5 below.

 

[DeniseAndy]

I usually do not get involved in this, but I see two different things going on here. The poster originally discusses the idea of growing out fish to be moved when they mature. I believe that was the topic. Lionfish Lair discussed how she grows them out in one tank to be moved as they grow to her own tanks. Making sure I get what the posts are stating.

I do not think anyone is talking about throwing a 10" tang in a 40g tank. From what I gather, the OP would like to have juvenile fish that he grows up to get them to a larger more appropriate home. I think many of us already do this. It is just most of us do it for ourselves. As Lionfish Lair said. We have QT or smaller thanks that we use and as the fish are ready we put into our main systems.

For instance, I have a wonderful rabbitfish currently out of qt, but too small to add to my 210 display. My tangs and others would make his life miserable. So, it is in my 40b till it gets bigger. I will then transfer it. I choose to keep my fish from juvenile to adult and till death of old age if possible. Of course, this has not always worked out. I have had to re-home fish for coral picking, fighting, etc.

To become tank raised, the fish are taken from the ocean as juveniles or fry and raised in a tank before selling. This is a similar idea. If you want to have a tank that you constantly have turnover of your fish and never have grown adults, then raising them and re-homing them is the way to go. I would rather see someone do this than have the wrong set up for the adult fish in question.

 

[Duke4Life]

This is something most have done at some point, I did my 1st go around. Some people enjoy this as they're constantly turning fish over and getting new ones. Now am I 1 of those people, no because I do get attached as they all have different personalities and are unique. I also research heavily and use a brainstorm cluster when deciding, if I can't put a yes into each circle I avoid (there are things out there with very little info).

Btw a lot of people thought I was crazy for a while for putting a chainlink eel with the fish I do.

 

[DanP-SD]

There's always the temptation when you're at the LFS to stock the tank based on how you want it to look today, but I think most aquarists soon learn that it's far better to take a longer-term view and plan for how your tank will look when fish or corals grow in and how healthy everything would be. The same impulse drives us to not quarantine fish. Right now, I have a 265 reef that's been running for about 2 months and has no fish because the fish are all in my QT. It kills me every time I walk by to not see fish in it (and my wife asks every day when they can go in), but decades in this hobby have taught me the value of quarantining thoroughly and it's the reason why my 120 reef hasn't lost a fish in 3 years. The same patience pays dividends in stocking the right sized fish for the tank. You can make it look awesome this week and then chase problems for months or you can plan for a few months out and enjoy the tank for years.

I don't say this to sound preachy or quell your interest in getting fun fish in the tank asap. I've been there and done that but I think, ultimately, you'll enjoy your tank more if you take a longer view.

But anyone telling you you can't keep a hippo tang in a 60 gallon is not being realistic. Ideally, it should be in a bigger tank but it'll take a long time to outgrow your tank and you can get away with it for a long time (probably a couple years if it lives that long) -- and can include plenty of other small fish, but you have to take some precautions. Make sure there are no other tangs, there's ample open swimming space for the tank, lots of water flow (particularly lateral flow across the tank, which the tang will enjoy swimming against), sufficient hiding places for smaller fish to avoid the attention of the tang, and robust filtration because you need to feed it well while maintaining high water quality. And be prepared that, if you don't quarantine, a hippo tang is very likely to introduce cryptocaryon to the tank and, in a 60g, it'll likely crash the tank quickly. If you don't have corals or other inverts, consider dropping salinity to fight the crypto (and reading up on hypo salinity strategies). I would join the other posters who advised you against the trade-in strategy on fish. Each new fish you add introduces a risk of pathogens and each fish you remove stresses the whole tank out. Besides, if it all works out for you, you'll be so hooked that by the time your tang outgrows your tank, you'll have three more larger tanks around the house to move it into.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I usually do not get involved in this, but I see two different things going on here. The poster originally discusses the idea of growing out fish to be moved when they mature. I believe that was the topic. Lionfish Lair discussed how she grows them out in one tank to be moved as they grow to her own tanks. Making sure I get what the posts are stating.

I do not think anyone is talking about throwing a 10" tang in a 40g tank. From what I gather, the OP would like to have juvenile fish that he grows up to get them to a larger more appropriate home. I think many of us already do this. It is just most of us do it for ourselves. As Lionfish Lair said. We have QT or smaller thanks that we use and as the fish are ready we put into our main systems.

For instance, I have a wonderful rabbitfish currently out of qt, but too small to add to my 210 display. My tangs and others would make his life miserable. So, it is in my 40b till it gets bigger. I will then transfer it. I choose to keep my fish from juvenile to adult and till death of old age if possible. Of course, this has not always worked out. I have had to re-home fish for coral picking, fighting, etc.

To become tank raised, the fish are taken from the ocean as juveniles or fry and raised in a tank before selling. This is a similar idea. If you want to have a tank that you constantly have turnover of your fish and never have grown adults, then raising them and re-homing them is the way to go. I would rather see someone do this than have the wrong set up for the adult fish in question.

I understand this point (and many other great points that have been raised on both sides of the discussion). However, I do think there's a difference in keeping a fish in QT or grow out for a tank that is already planned, and keeping a fish that you hopefully can find a place to rehome. In the first case, the move has already been planned with a new home already picked out, but in the second there's no future home really in sight (the obvious way to counter this would be to get the fish once you've already worked out who will take it once it's too large for the temporary tank...).

I also think that the original analogy of a kid sleeping in the crib doesn't work (since none of us would think of keeping a baby in a cage the size of a kingsize bed at all...let alone through their adolescence). The only way this would work is if we were talking about having the fish sleep in the small tank, but being allowed to move in the larger tank when he's awake... but I digress... Ultimately, the analogy breaks down and isn't proof that it is ethical to keep a fish in a tank that is smaller than its recommended size. I'm not saying there are no arguments that might work, but I am saying that's not one.

I ultimately think that the big issue in the "tang police wars" is that people generally make a decision about what they want to do with their tank, and then want others to sign off on it. Sometimes this works out, and sometimes it doesn't. In the end, those who have acknowledged that the OP's tank is his own, and he will do as he wishes (with or without the approval of others) are correct. So all any of us are doing is offering our own perspectives and what we would do in that situation. In my case, I find there to be a big difference in growing a fish out in a temporary tank for his own health and safety which is effectively acclimating and preparing him for his final home in the bigger tank that I already have prepared for him, and buying a fish that I know I cannot personally care for long-term in any of my tanks. I would do the former, and I would not do the latter...but that is my take on reef-keeping. I can suggest that the OP do as I would, but in the end, it is his tank and he'll do what he wants.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

In regards to the stress and welfare of the fish, it doesn't make a difference. He's in "Tank A" one moment and "Tank B" the next. It doesn't make a difference if "B" is in my home or someone else's home, as long as their needs are met.

 

[David Jones]

I want to thank everyone for their amazingly diverse opinions, i cant tell you how great it feels to hear honesty from both sides of the coin, i have enough common sense to undertand the logic behind the ethical perspective of doing the right thing by the fish, however like one of the guys said above that worked at a LFS for 2 years most people feel exactly like me that by these juvenile fish and get rid of them when there older, i love a lot of the different perspectives, i started this conversation because i found this topic to be very sensitive and evokes a lot of responses and perspectives, i hope all the comments were helpful to new hobbiest and i would encourage those die hard hobiest that follow all the rules to learn from some of the gentlemen above that try to educate but not discourage someone from participating in the hobby the way they like, i expected the crazy comments to flood in, however i cant tell you how much i was encouraged by some of the honest comments that do similar practices as far as relocating juveniles into a larger tank

 

[Daniel@R2R]

In regards to the stress and welfare of the fish, it doesn't make a difference. He's in "Tank A" one moment and "Tank B" the next. It doesn't make a difference if "B" is in my home or someone else's home, as long as their needs are met.

I agree with that statement. The issue is whether or not you can find a "tank B" later on...or if it actually ever becomes a priority...after all, it's not the same thing to say "one day I'll rehome him when he gets bigger" as it is to say, "I'll keep this guy in here for the first 6-12 months so he can grow and then add him to the new tank." In the 2nd scenario, there's a plan and even an anticipation of moving him--an obvious motivator, but in the "rehome" scenario (#1), there's no motivator...in fact, most of us won't look forward happily to the day when that fish is too large for us to keep anymore.

My point is not that there's a difference between my tank and someone else's as far as quality (though there may be an argument that could be made there depending on where tank B ends up being), but rather that (in most cases) a person who buys a fish with the intent to rehome it when it gets "too big for my tank" (whatever that may mean...it's usually not a specifically defined metric) does not have a specific "tank B" picked out, and that usually leads to the fish staying in the tank well beyond when it probably should have been rehomed. If I have a fish in grow out, that doesn't happen because I'm looking forward to the day when I can move him to the large display, so the plan is in place and I have motivation to act on it.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

I've been guilty of leaving them there too long or longer than intended, I'll admit.

I agree you gotta have a plan.... if you have a standing agreement with the LFS that they'll take them back, that'll work.

 

[rayn]

I guess i dont plan on getting attached to the fish like i would a human life lol i look at it like if you can keep them in the tank for 3 to 6 months then swap them for a smaller fish a few months down the road, i guesss i see fish as a more expensible pet than a dog or cat

I tried to read through the rest of the thread, but this one post has me not wanting too. I don't even really care what the OP says or any response thereafter is.

Let me explain. This hobby is under attack. Who knows how long we will be able to partake in it in some form or fashion. There are to many groups out there trying to drive us down because of "reefers" with this thought pattern. Fish aren't expendable. Corals aren't expendable. Sure j can run out and buy a new one once one dies, but that fish is dead! Most likely someone ripped it from its home and shipped it half way across the world to be placed in OUR CARE! If we think of them as throw aways, we don't deserve to have this hobby.

If you buy a tank that is a certain size, either stock to that tank or upgrade. Don't stick a large fish in there figuring either it will die or be re homed. It's not that hard.

Grow out tanks are different. If do a grow out tank it is because the fish is to small to be added to a tank, my tank. But once it is added, it is there for the long term.

Okay, rant over.....

 

[Peanut]

I always thought if a fish died i would just go out and replace it like a gold fish, i cant tell you how many fish my parents replaced while i was at school because they died, i guess i dont get the emotional connection to fish, to me there more like living decorations that i have to feed, i cant wrap my head around considering them family like my dog

if you were paying $50 for a wild caught goldfish then it would be the same.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

I see it a little different because of my own experiences. That volitans was never in a tank that was way too small, but I bought him without his 100g anywhere in sight. We even lived in a small apartment where the 100g couldn't even be set up.

I think the OP was talking expendable like he could swap them out without too much attachment.... something most would not be able to do with a cat or dog. I gotta agree with that. I like my fish and I give them the best care I can, but I don't cry when they die. A few drew some tears, but it's not the same..... My dog passing has totally messed me up to this day and had my husband crying for months. That's how I read his statement.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I always thought if a fish died i would just go out and replace it like a gold fish, i cant tell you how many fish my parents replaced while i was at school because they died, i guess i dont get the emotional connection to fish, to me there more like living decorations that i have to feed, i cant wrap my head around considering them family like my dog

 

[David Jones]

I tried to read through the rest of the thread, but this one post has me not wanting too. I don't even really care what the OP says or any response thereafter is.

Let me explain. This hobby is under attack. Who knows how long we will be able to partake in it in some form or fashion. There are to many groups out there trying to drive us down because of "reefers" with this thought pattern. Fish aren't expendable. Corals aren't expendable. Sure j can run out and buy a new one once one dies, but that fish is dead! Most likely someone ripped it from its home and shipped it half way across the world to be placed in OUR CARE! If we think of them as throw aways, we don't deserve to have this hobby.

If you buy a tank that is a certain size, either stock to that tank or upgrade. Don't stick a large fish in there figuring either it will die or be re homed. It's not that hard.

Grow out tanks are different. If do a grow out tank it is because the fish is to small to be added to a tank, my tank. But once it is added, it is there for the long term.

Okay, rant over.....

If putting these fish in a larger tank helps you sleep at night, good for you, personally im not gonna lose any sleep keeping these fish for 6 months and swapping them out for juveniles with my LFS, the average person in this hobby does not have a 300 gallon tank.. and you are the type of individual that discourages people participating in the hobby, i spent 1,600 dollars on my 60 gallon cube set up ,if you think people spend that type of money and only want to put damsels in the tank thats crazy, also who says all coral/ fish come from the wild, some are captive bred.. trust me i put the thread up expecting to hear harsh opinions like yourself but saying i dont deserve the hobby, who are you to decide that, and who are you to use a forum to support that hobby to tell people they shouldnt practice what they want, like i said earlier educate new people to the hobby but dont discourage them to experiment within the hobby, cause if thats the case you should be standing outside of the atlanta aquarium right now with posters protesting the whale sharks they have in captivity. Do you protest seaworld too, if you actually read the thread you would see that i was thankful for the opinions from both sides

 

[David Jones]

I see it a little different because of my own experiences. That volitans was never in a tank that was way too small, but I bought him without his 100g anywhere in sight. We even lived in a small apartment where the 100g couldn't even be set up.

I think the OP was talking expendable like he could swap them out without too much attachment.... something most would not be able to do with a cat or dog. I gotta agree with that. I like my fish and I give them the best care I can, but I don't cry when they die. A few drew some tears, but it's not the same..... My dog passing has totally messed me up to this day and had my husband crying for months. That's how I read his statement.

Thank you so much for understanding, this guy acted like i was saying, ooh hes too big guess i can flush him down the toilet and get a new one, noo im going to bring him back to my LFS and trade him in for a juvenile. The fact that i already have a plan for where the fish is going to go in 6 months negates the whole argument of buying a fish with no plan for what happens when he outgrows the tank

 

[RyanCSGO]

so why post your question knowing the outcome and already having your mind made up with your "plan"? regardless of what anyone says your going to get multiple fish that are best suited for larger aquariums. rather than taking a piece of the aquatic world and doing everything possible to raise it properly and truly learn about it and make it thrive, you plan to throw a few fish in the tank and once they are too big or your tired of looking at them just toss them aside to the LFS and start again. when people speak of a plan for their inhabitants its moving into a permanent larger tank, not back to the LFS in a small tank where it can stress out just to be moved yet again.

 

[Pola0502ds]

Nope saltwater pond, once I finish my 1200g display it will be a 600g refugium

Dude! You have got to be kidding me! Can you post some pics or have a link to some like a thread you already started related to it? I would love to see that.

 

[David Jones]

so why post your question knowing the outcome and already having your mind made up with your "plan"? regardless of what anyone says your going to get multiple fish that are best suited for larger aquariums. rather than taking a piece of the aquatic world and doing everything possible to raise it properly and truly learn about it and make it thrive, you plan to throw a few fish in the tank and once they are too big or your tired of looking at them just toss them aside to the LFS and start again. when people speak of a plan for their inhabitants its moving into a permanent larger tank, not back to the LFS in a small tank where it can stress out just to be moved yet again.

I think i understand how you feel about this subject and im sure you understand how I feel, i wrote this thread to hear the opinions from both sides but more importantly to meet many hobbiest that agree with me on thinking that process is ok, i have no intention on changing your mind, i wish i could take a poll on how many hobbiest agree with me, i got a chance to see alot on this thread that do as well as a lot that dont, however in my opinion there by far are more people on my side that dont just put chromis and damsels in there almost 2,000 fish tanks and if indeed thats the only fish they could keep in there tank they wouldnt be in the hobby