Do you agree with Paul B's method (no QT) ?

[BeejReef]

I like being lucky for 48 years. Maybe i should play the lottery.

OK, How come virtually no one who quarantines is lucky? I don't see any old quarantined fish.



I actually do keep a bunch of fish that are not considered very hardy like pipefish, Queen anthius, copperband, hippo tang, etc.
I also have had many tangs and moorish Idols. No disease yet.

You know you best Paul. Wasn't trying to imply you cannot and do not keep difficult fish. Was trying to say they've "become hardy" under your regiment

 

[Paul B]

This spawnjng pair of Watchmands died about 12 years old. I got them as babies and I posted their baby pictures, their adolescent pictures and pictures of them with eggs and dying of old age.


Here is a gobi that was dying of old age. I don't remember how long I had that fish but like many of my fish I did a necropsy to see if he was healthy. Like all of my fish there was not one parasite in his gills. I removed him just so they wouldn't pick on him and he had a peaceful death.
Over the life of my tank people have been trying to discredit my methods. But in pictures I can prove my methods work along with the long history I have posting and before that writing in Magazines such as FAMMA.

I don't see anyone here proving that quarantining fish gives you long lived, healthy fish.

 

[Paul B]

BeejReef, you are reading way to much into my replies. I knew that. It was just a general answer written by a General I know.

 

[User1]

BeejReef, you are reading way to much into my replies. I knew that. It was just a general answer written by a General I know.

I like General George S. Patton.

 

[Paul B]

Yes, Old Blood and Guts. His guts and his mens blood. That's what I used to hear from guys who served under him.

I am still friends with my Captain in Nam. Now he is a retired General.

 

[User1]

Yes, Old Blood and Guts. His guts and his mens blood. That's what I used to hear from guys who served under him.

I am still friends with my Captain in Nam. Now he is a retired General.

My neighbor is a career and retired Nam vet, Army, E-9. Great guy and I'm really thrilled he and his family are my neighbor. I always give him crap for being a ground pounder and he continues to call me a wing nut

 

[siggy]

Here is a gobi that was dying of old age

Oh ya, I can see the cataracts. Must be the organic Pods his mater feeds him, 12 years is quite a run!

 

[Bleigh]

I think there's a lot to unpack here.

One thing I use to research was endosymbiotic bacteria in plants. We had a hard time propagating certain plants because they tended to get contaminated (My first real job was cloning plants and plant cryogenics). The sterilization process was extreme and nearly killed all of the plant cells in the process. I suggested that part of our problem may be that the bacteria may actually be living within certain plants. People looked at me like I was nuts. Now we know that endosymbiotic bacteria can occur at very high levels in some plants and can be part of the plants protective plan. I would not be surprised at all if this isn't what's going on in fish, with respect to diet. Perhaps the varied diet that the fish are being provided repopulate the fish gut with endosymbiotic bacteria that is actually killing or weakening some parasites for and in conjunction with the fish's immune and compliment responses.

I'm not sure which method is right. I know that personally, I'm am leaning towards a method of QT without prophylactic dosing, where observation is used to jump on any possible illnesses before putting the fish in the dt.... We know germs spread. My idea of observation is akin to hand washing in my head.

 

[siggy]

What she said

.... did catch some of that, So environmental and geographical factors can be in play

 

[PanchoG]

What she said

.... did catch some of that, So environmental and geological factors can be in play

 

[siggy]

whats for breakfast? Reef Nuts .....not just for sub straight any more

 

[MnFish1]

Fish can even absorb chemicals through their skin.

So can humans - thats why so many drugs are delivered as 'patches'. Apologetically - some of the things you say are just 'factually incorrect'. This doesnt mean your method/recommendations are wrong at all - just the rationale behind them.

You don't read my posts much do you?

I read quite a few of them - thats how I know that you find tangs boring - As I said in my post. . I also knew based on reading a couple dozen of these threads that once you said you had all these fish that live to be decades old - but you said you had many of them - that people would question it. Still not sure you answered the question - but - you did post a long answer.

I have been mostly defending your 'method' for some time - but - your rationale - no. It seems scientifically and factually incorrect sometimes. If you dont want to change your mind - thats all good.... The reason I defend your method is that I don't QT. If you have read my posts on this thread - they have mostly been in support of observation QT - which I think at times you support as well. But perhaps it might be nice if you would at least consider that some of your rationale may be wrong or outdated - based on what many people say. ...

 

[Paul B]

but - you did post a long answer.

I post like I talk. Long and winded.

So can humans - thats why so many drugs are delivered as 'patches'.

Yes, thats true, some medications can go through human skin. But many more things can get through a fishes skin. But I am an electrician and not a fish skin expert so what do I know?

It seems scientifically and factually incorrect sometimes.

They could be as they are just my opinions and I never said I was an expert on anything, just undergravel filters. And maybe Supermodels.

But perhaps it might be nice if you would at least consider that some of your rationale may be wrong or outdated - based on what many people say. ..

Some of my rational may be wrong, and "all" of it is outdated. How about that.

I really don't have anything to prove. My methods, observations and ways I express myself may all be wrong.
But I got really healthy, long lived fish that never get sick. Thats almost all I want. I also want a nice piece of dark chocolate now with a glass of Grand Marnier.

And Mn, you know I really like these talks and I also don't mind at all when someone tells me I am wrong about something. I am sure I am wrong about a lot of things. ;Wideyed

 

[Scott Campbell]

I think there's a lot to unpack here.

One thing I use to research was endosymbiotic bacteria in plants. We had a hard time propagating certain plants because they tended to get contaminated (My first real job was cloning plants and plant cryogenics). The sterilization process was extreme and nearly killed all of the plant cells in the process. I suggested that part of our problem may be that the bacteria may actually be living within certain plants. People looked at me like I was nuts. Now we know that endosymbiotic bacteria can occur at very high levels in some plants and can be part of the plants protective plan. I would not be surprised at all if this isn't what's going on in fish, with respect to diet. Perhaps the varied diet that the fish are being provided repopulate the fish gut with endosymbiotic bacteria that is actually killing or weakening some parasites for and in conjunction with the fish's immune and compliment responses.

I'm not sure which method is right. I know that personally, I'm am leaning towards a method of QT without prophylactic dosing, where observation is used to jump on any possible illnesses before putting the fish in the dt.... We know germs spread. My idea of observation is akin to hand washing in my head.

All of this.

There are so many issues tangled together here. I would also second what MnFish1 just posted - that the "method" Paul recommends is sound. It is the method I basically follow. But the conclusions Paul arrives at don't always seem that sound to me.

1. The bacterial make-up of the digestive system is incredibly important. And diet affects that bacterial make-up. Your stomach will have "better" bacteria if you eat fruit and vegetables rather than skittles. Killing that bacteria with prophylactic dosing *may* do more harm than good. Before my mother passed she was repeatedly treated with antibiotics for several infections. Each treatment wiped out her digestive bacteria - which created a number of other life-threatening issues. But it happened to be the case for her that it was the lesser of two evils. The decision to treat a fish with antibiotics will depend on how serious you believe the infection or illness to be. That said - people and fish can replenish their digestive bacteria. Probiotics are helpful in this regard. It is not the case that gut bacteria will always be compromised after antibiotic treatments. It is also not the case that consuming parasites or diseased material will help ward off parasites or diseases. Which is why people don't eat tapeworms and cancerous tumors. A good diet is all you need. And all your fish will need.

2. Exposure to diseases is generally not a good thing for individual people or fish. It may be helpful for a population over several generations. But it is rather a mixed bag for an individual. You might develop some short-term immunities. But you might also just get sick and die. The example of doctors and nurses developing immunities is tossed around a lot. Sure that happens - but I've never seen any evidence that doctors live longer lives than anyone else. No one, doctors included, are eager to be exposed to infectious diseases. Hence the masks, gloves and surgical gowns. There is no sound reason to deliberately expose an individual fish to parasites and disease.

3. Paul's tanks appear to have always been more "diverse" than most people's tanks. By that I mean he is always adding microfauna to his tanks - particularly mud from the shore. He notes that he only recently noticed sponges in his tanks. But my tank is nearly as old as Paul's and my tanks have *always* been filled with small tube worms, sponge-like organisms, tunicates, tiny barnacles and many other unknown filter feeders. You can't help but acquire these organisms if you are adding live rock, mud or sand to your tank. And these filter feeders consume free floating organisms. The more densely populated a tank is with filter feeders, the less likely parasitic organisms can complete their life-cycle. It is also worth noting that reef tanks have several flow "choke-points" where all the water is forced through one zone and the filter feeders grow in clumps. A condition that does not necessarily happen in the wild. And these choke-points are killing zones for free-floating parasites. Reducing your fish load will also reduce the chances of parasites finding a host. Without exception, all the people who don't seem to have trouble with ich and other parasites seem to have tanks with a large proportion of filter feeding organisms relative to fish. The flip side is that public aquariums and reefers with a large number of fish and a low to non-existent number of filter-feeders do seem to have issues. Because adding a parasitic organism to a tank with a lot of fish and no predators is not going to end well. The sane approach is then to quarantine. Paul's fish are healthy because he feeds them well and because his tank is actively filtering parasites out of the water. It is hard to beat the effectiveness of such a biological filter. But honestly - 11 to 12 years is not that long of a life for a captive tang. My yellow tang has been with me for over 25 years. Other "methods" are just as effective as what Paul is espousing.

The need to quarantine will depend on your set-up. Fish are not immune to all diseases. Treatments can help. Treatments can also cause harm. Feeding your fish good food helps. Feeding your fish parasites is not helpful. Deliberately exposing your fish to parasites and disease is unlikely to be helpful. Adding clams, tube worms, sponges, tunicates and other filter feeders to your tank is a great hedge against parasites. Find the method that works best for you.

 

[siggy]

Paul's tanks appear to have always been more "diverse" than most people's tanks

Organic before being trendy
Reef builders showed an aussi tank 3 or 400g all he does is is a huge WC with ocean water. You would think pests and diseases would accompany as well as the good stuff

 

[HotRocks]

I haven't read the thread, because I am lazy!

I do agree with @Paul B's method if you are @Paul B

Everyone knows that Paul and I are on far opposite ends as far as how we add fish to our systems. Which is just perfectly fine, because I have grown to respect Paul and he brings a lot to the table as far as the hobby is concerned. I would say if you do every single thing he does you may be able to share the success he does with his tank. It is not a method I would be willing to try since I source my fish online and I definitely don't live anywhere near a location that I can collect my own NSW. Those are the largest differences.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Can they take likes away from me?

 

[Bleigh]

I post like I talk. Long and winded.



Yes, thats true, some medications can go through human skin. But many more things can get through a fishes skin. But I am an electrician and not a fish skin expert so what do I know?



They could be as they are just my opinions and I never said I was an expert on anything, just undergravel filters. And maybe Supermodels.



Some of my rational may be wrong, and "all" of it is outdated. How about that.

I really don't have anything to prove. My methods, observations and ways I express myself may all be wrong.
But I got really healthy, long lived fish that never get sick. Thats almost all I want. I also want a nice piece of dark chocolate now with a glass of Grand Marnier.

And Mn, you know I really like these talks and I also don't mind at all when someone tells me I am wrong about something. I am sure I am wrong about a lot of things. ;Wideyed

The supermodel expertise has me curious. ;Hilarious

 

[Bleigh]

All of this.

There are so many issues tangled together here. I would also second what MnFish1 just posted - that the "method" Paul recommends is sound. It is the method I basically follow. But the conclusions Paul arrives at don't always seem that sound to me.

1. The bacterial make-up of the digestive system is incredibly important. And diet affects that bacterial make-up. Your stomach will have "better" bacteria if you eat fruit and vegetables rather than skittles. Killing that bacteria with prophylactic dosing *may* do more harm than good. Before my mother passed she was repeatedly treated with antibiotics for several infections. Each treatment wiped out her digestive bacteria - which created a number of other life-threatening issues. But it happened to be the case for her that it was the lesser of two evils. The decision to treat a fish with antibiotics will depend on how serious you believe the infection or illness to be. That said - people and fish can replenish their digestive bacteria. Probiotics are helpful in this regard. It is not the case that gut bacteria will always be compromised after antibiotic treatments. It is also not the case that consuming parasites or diseased material will help ward off parasites or diseases. Which is why people don't eat tapeworms and cancerous tumors. A good diet is all you need. And all your fish will need.

2. Exposure to diseases is generally not a good thing for individual people or fish. It may be helpful for a population over several generations. But it is rather a mixed bag for an individual. You might develop some short-term immunities. But you might also just get sick and die. The example of doctors and nurses developing immunities is tossed around a lot. Sure that happens - but I've never seen any evidence that doctors live longer lives than anyone else. No one, doctors included, are eager to be exposed to infectious diseases. Hence the masks, gloves and surgical gowns. There is no sound reason to deliberately expose an individual fish to parasites and disease.

3. Paul's tanks appear to have always been more "diverse" than most people's tanks. By that I mean he is always adding microfauna to his tanks - particularly mud from the shore. He notes that he only recently noticed sponges in his tanks. But my tank is nearly as old as Paul's and my tanks have *always* been filled with small tube worms, sponge-like organisms, tunicates, tiny barnacles and many other unknown filter feeders. You can't help but acquire these organisms if you are adding live rock, mud or sand to your tank. And these filter feeders consume free floating organisms. The more densely populated a tank is with filter feeders, the less likely parasitic organisms can complete their life-cycle. It is also worth noting that reef tanks have several flow "choke-points" where all the water is forced through one zone and the filter feeders grow in clumps. A condition that does not necessarily happen in the wild. And these choke-points are killing zones for free-floating parasites. Reducing your fish load will also reduce the chances of parasites finding a host. Without exception, all the people who don't seem to have trouble with ich and other parasites seem to have tanks with a large proportion of filter feeding organisms relative to fish. The flip side is that public aquariums and reefers with a large number of fish and a low to non-existent number of filter-feeders do seem to have issues. Because adding a parasitic organism to a tank with a lot of fish and no predators is not going to end well. The sane approach is then to quarantine. Paul's fish are healthy because he feeds them well and because his tank is actively filtering parasites out of the water. It is hard to beat the effectiveness of such a biological filter. But honestly - 11 to 12 years is not that long of a life for a captive tang. My yellow tang has been with me for over 25 years. Other "methods" are just as effective as what Paul is espousing.

The need to quarantine will depend on your set-up. Fish are not immune to all diseases. Treatments can help. Treatments can also cause harm. Feeding your fish good food helps. Feeding your fish parasites is not helpful. Deliberately exposing your fish to parasites and disease is unlikely to be helpful. Adding clams, tube worms, sponges, tunicates and other filter feeders to your tank is a great hedge against parasites. Find the method that works best for you.

So are you saying that the people selling chicken pox lolly pops shouldn’t be deliberating exposing kids to disease. (Totally being sarcastic, by the way.)

Can’t find a single flaw in your logic. Agree whole heartedly ;Happy