Jon Fishman
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Do you agree with Paul B's method (no QT) ?
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Of course I don't do that as it would be 100% opposite of what I believe.
I also never de wormed a fish. Maybe 80% of fish have worms, I never counted, but maybe the worms are eliminated naturally in healthy fish. If not, why do they not harm my fish?
About treating prophalatically (I can't spell that) We are failing to realize the role bacteria play in fish. It's the bacteria that keep the fish healthy. The correct bacteria. Treating with antibiotics or even copper will totally screw up the ratio of bacteria where the fish may never recover.
I wrote extensibly on this on the last quarantine thread and I didn't make that up. The bacteria the fish come to us with from the sea is what they need and it doesn't last forever which is why I feed clams from the sea. That bacteria is what the fish uses to make it's immune system and without a functioning immune system, that fish is very flawed. It is exactly like a person after chemo treatment. Do they look healthy? They may live, but they are miserable.
The correct bacteria is much more important to the fish than having a few intestonal worms that barely hurt the fish and may be eliminated in time with a good diet (but I am guessing)
I know worms can't be to bad as I never had any problems with them and never de wormed anything.
Healthy, spawning long lived fish need that fresh, live bacteria and if you quarantine a fish for an extended amount of time, that bacteria will be taken over by the bacteria in the flake food, or pellets, oatmeal or whatever people feed their fish and the fish will never have an immune system which is why even though I asked 3 times, I still don't see any pictures of old, quarantined, spawning fish in an old system. What happened to those fish? Why aren't they dying of old age in 15 or 20 years? WE are talking about thousands of fish we took out of the sea. Where are they?
Mine are still happily living and making out their wills for when the day comes far into the future as my fish can't get sick. Their bacteria makes sure of that.
Just keep the bacteria alive that the fish came with and you will have no problems.
The question was for those who do quarantine.....
Elegance Coral
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I don't know about that, but remember, I am not trying to eliminate parasites, just the opposite so if ich can fly, they can fly into my tank as I welcome the extra immunity.
Ich is a parasite. Fish, in the span of one life time, can not develop an immunity to ich. Just as humans can't develop an immunity to lice, deer can't develop an immunity to ticks, and dogs can't develop an immunity to fleas.
Due to billions of years of evolution, some species of fish are better hosts to ich than others. Just as some mammals are better hosts to a particular parasite than others. We're not going to change this in our life time. The ich parasite prefers some species of fish over others. Just as dogs are not likely to become infested with lice, and humans are not likely to become infested with fleas, despite the fact that we're both mammals. These relationships were forged over billions of years of evolution.
An individual fish, of a given species, that is a good host to ich, will always be a good host to ich, and there's nothing we can do to change that.
We can not expose a dog to fleas and expect it to develop an immunity to fleas. We can't feed it well, and provide probiotics to build an immunity to fleas. It doesn't work that way.
With all the respect in the world......
Peace
EC
reefproaquatics
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Here is an example of the parasite load on fish being shipped from one of the largest most well regarded wholesalers in the US. They don't quarantine, pass the fish onto a LFS that likely doesn't quarantine either, and then onto the consumer.
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There is a difference for example between a 'fluke' and a 'protozoan'. Just like there is a difference between a wood tick and a protozoan. Fish can become immune to Ich - they produce antibodies specifically against strains of ich to which they were exposed. They also have direct T cell immunity. Vaccines have been developed for Ich - but administration has been an issue.
There is no evidence for some of the things you are saying (with all due respect to you). But - you're using a lot of kind of 'general words' so I may be misunderstanding what you're saying
Of course we cannot give dogs immunity to fleas - but - dogs and other animals can become immune to toxoplasmosis - (a protozoan) and others: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3437742/. We cannot become immune to wood ticks - but the parasites they Carry (Lyme disease, anaplasma, erlichicia) - we can become immune to as another example.
If you look at the incidence of CI in Vietnam - (a recent study) - you will see that at various times of the year - nearly all species of fish had CI (excluding those with more resistance, sharks, etc) - and that some of the 'ich magnets' that we all know about were among the least infected.
The actual fact is - the immune system acts against different species and types of bacteria, parasites, and viruses, etc - For example - certain types of anthrax (a bacteria) are better protected against the immune system than strep throat. Just like certain types of parasites are affected/limited by the immune system where others are not.
So the blanket statement that 'immunity to parasites is different than immunity from bacteria is not true (though it is true in some instances)
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Unfortunately - cant see the video - who is the vendor? PS - thats why its commonly mentioned that fish selection / vendor selection is important.
Jekyl
GSP is the devil and clowns are bad pets
I picked Paul's brain as much as he would allow when setting up my tank. RUGF system, crushed coral, no QT, real food never processed or dehydrated. I'm 6 months in now. I've added live rock and substrate from every LFS in my reach. I haven't dipped a coral or medicated anything. All that I have gotten is a bunch of beneficial hitchhikers, healthy animals and coral. I realize luck may come into play. However I notice a white speck every now and then on my fish. Then they are gone. One clown went a couple days without eating, then made up for it and ate like crazy. I'm a small sample size but so far so good. So far in my experience blasting my new pets with meds they don't need was replaced by buying from reliable sources and just paying attention to their conditions.
schooncw
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I do not quarantine and never have. I am 59 and have always been a hobbyist, as my mother was raising seahorses before I was born.
Paul B
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I have no idea and was hoping someone could tell me. I have it a few years and it is very cool. As is this Perchlet. I like unusual fish and am tired of angels and tangs as they are to boring and common. But how many of these have you seen?
They don't have to. They come to us already immune. Immunity that they got from their Mother.
This is a fluke. I don't have a picture of a protozoan but I could probably find one of a Duck Billed Platypus.
living_tribunal
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I keep coral and inverts in a seperate qt tank for minimum 45 days.
Jon Fishman
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I have no idea and was hoping someone could tell me. I have it a few years and it is very cool.
Dang. How big is it? Peaceful and reef safe? I would 100% seek one out!
No tangs here!
Victoria M
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I can not open the document. I wanna read it!
Webslinger
Valuable Member
I have no idea and was hoping someone could tell me. I have it a few years and it is very cool. As is this Perchlet. I like unusual fish and am tired of angels and tangs as they are to boring and common. But how many of these have you seen?
hawk fish (Plectranthias inermis)
dmh41532
Active Member
for me it depends on the source. when I lived in Ohio, I had a really great lfs that actually fed their fish, and had an impressive filtration system, so the fish were healthy to start. i just acclimated them and put the fish in. now if i have to buy online, i may qt. especially if the fish is thin. but i only qt to get them eating, once they're eating and start to put on weight, then i put them in my main tank. and i only medicate if needed.
@Lasse will know what isI have no idea and was hoping someone could tell me. I have it a few years and it is very cool. As is this Perchlet. I like unusual fish and am tired of angels and tangs as they are to boring and common. But how many of these have you seen?
They don't have to. They come to us already immune. Immunity that they got from their Mother.
This is a fluke. I don't have a picture of a protozoan but I could probably find one of a Duck Billed Platypus.
I have 3 tanks. 1 20L frag type for inverts after inspection/dip, 40b naturalistic for fish, & a 20 I throw up for medicating. All fish get a fw dip now. I wait 2 months for fish and 2 1/2 for inverts.
I 100% believe in Paul Bs no QR. I do not have the time or the space for a QT tank. Paul has had tanks a little longer than I have I had my first tznk in 1978 I think. I do feed dry food sometimes but not often.
Conditioning tank sounds great.
Also feeding raw foods and probiotics to boost immune systems in fish is key for me. I feel that boosting instead of stripping there immune systems is the direction we should be heading. So yes a conditioning tank sounds great
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