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- Nov 3, 2010
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- Long Island NY
... and there is a third group that says it works without claiming no liability. It's not a black and white us vs. them.There is one thing I’m certain of
one group claims liability from sand
another group says that’s crazy they work fine with no liability
Not entirely true. Dr. Shemik detailed what he knew about sandbeds, grain size, benthic organism densities, sand bed dynamics in the wild and how that compared to the assays he and Dr. Toonan did on a limited number of reef tanks.where these two groups never meet is in a thread where group B, success, fixes up mal performing sandbeds for group A live time using methods that made their tank work as measured
someone should change that trend and produce the first DSB diagnostics thread ever made. No theories, no biochem, or first person safety guarantees - just work in others tanks who state they have a problem and the tank is tracked until success
I truly believe group B has working sandbeds for decades, the catch is being there in person to veer off course/innovate action/know when to clean or add more sand etc
nobody writes a procedural manual that can be copied step by step, the first offer was add sand/ add plenum and get all the benefits. We know that doesn’t work well for everyone.
Scale, or lack thereof is the largest issue of a 'self maintaining' sand bed that relies on benthic organisms for nutrient processing. It was the reason that Dr. Shimek had organism replenishment as part of his regimen.Yes, fair question. Let me search out some threads from 2003 I will back edit them in
my opinions are based on working in small tanks that have no volume to speak of, we get to see quick results vs having to wait ten years.
we relay the results to large tankers, hopefully before the invasions set in.
No idea why you would use an acronym for deep sand bed or that you would use it often enough to warrant an acronym. New reefers already have a hard enough time trying to get the information they need, why make it harder on them. I normally just skip posts or information that use acronyms.its not like you can google DSB and come up with deep sand bed nor should I have to. If your to much in a hurry or lazy to spell it out “at least in the topic” than I won’t waste my time on reading something I have no idea what it means.What the heck does DSB stand for? DSB is an acronym for deep sand bed!
The question and poll of the day is inspired by @JoshH and we're hoping to really get some good info from you!
How many of us are running a DSB and what are your experiences with it?
How deep is your DSB and how deep do you think it needs to be to be a DSB?
Is your DSB in your tank or is it a remote DSB?
image via @TriggerThis
If one looks only and at a part of the chemical process. And of course, they are not similar, certainly bio-chemical.As I understand it DNRA is a reduction process and denitrification is an oxidation process - they are not similar - they are opposite each other.
This is a lot of the care requirements that I knew of back in the day and is probably one of the reasons why my current beds don't function well.... and there is a third group that says it works without claiming no liability. It's not a black and white us vs. them.
Not entirely true. Dr. Shemik detailed what he knew about sandbeds, grain size, benthic organism densities, sand bed dynamics in the wild and how that compared to the assays he and Dr. Toonan did on a limited number of reef tanks.
He was able to hit what he thought were the correct organism densities in his tank and confirm that not many other tanks reached these densities. He was also able to confirm that it was difficult to maintain these organism densities over time, and had a reasonable hypothesis as to why. The four inch bed depth that has been quoted here as the minimum for a deep sand bed came from Ron and what he found was the minimum depth to support organism densities and diversity.
He was also able to bring these densities backup through periodic re-inoculation.
In short, quite a bit is known/documented about sand beds. How many people with sand beds use or have tried Dr. Shemik's method? How many are even aware of what he has written?
Another point on lost information. Someone posted earlier that there was not even anything documenting what the minimum required depth is. Not true. Years ago Dr. Toonen did an experiment where he confirmed that you did not need a deep bed to get the benefits of sand bed nitrogen processing. Hypoxic conditions start within milimeters of the top of the sand bed. How deep depends on water flow over the bed. He got very good results with a two inch bed.
Of course, with such a shallow bed, a different long term maintenance regimen is required.
To me, there are now only two reasons to keep a deep sand bed in a tank: you like the large critters that require a deep sand bed, you like the benthic critters that need a deep sand bed. I happen to like both.
If one has a DSB, for me this is a sand bed of more than +- 2,5cm or +-1 inch thick, with the intention to increase the denitrification capacity, as a bio-filter, or for any other reason, I think stirring up the deep bed is a very bad idea, exempt when it is done on a daily or more regular base, continues by the habitants, by specific livestock.As far as deep sand beds, not sure what you are considering deep sand beds. 3”, 6”, 10”. To me a deep sand bed is 3”. If you have to keep stirring your gravel and cleaning it by hand then it’s a deep sand bed (3”). I figured anything more than 3” is for specific live stock and most of those are not reef safe so it’s a mute point.
Of course , take everything I say with a grain of salt as this is just my opinion and in no way to be used with my current reefing experience or lack of.