Loverman Smith
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Do you think we have gone too far with clownfish breeding?
- Thread starter JoshH
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Berlibee
.Wen Game.
We are breeding clownfish as well. But we are a small facility, and you can obtain more info in my build thread that is in the signature. In my opinion, no one should release a partially blind fish if this is true. I can't understand it personally. We should breed them to have cool patterns, not "cool" defects. Sure, there is such thing as perfect imperfection, but partially blind doesn't fit into category for me.
Now about the initial question in this thread. I think breeding clownfish is extremely valuable for our hobby and our planet. I know what you are thinking:"How are you helping with your small facility?" And it's true, comparing to the large breeding facilities we're not helping that much to relieve the pressure on the oceans, which is the primary goal. But I'm not looking at this from this point of view. I want to help and be part of it, and we have a specific amount of time that we can dedicate for breeding in my life with my wife. I'm taking this time and putting all my efforts into it. Yes, compared to the large breeders, my help is MINIMAL. But I know that I'm using all the power and resources that I have available. That's mean for me - I'm doing my MAXIMUM to help release the pressure. This is all I can give, and I'm proud of it. This is why I'm so open also to share all the details about breeding. To help others to succeed in this in case they want to try as well.
So no, we are not gone too far, but breeders should control their desire for income and release only healthy fish. And that a fish ACT NORMAL when born partially blind, is not a sign that this fish is healthy they adapt to what they have as they never got anything else, this is how they were born.
This is NOT ethical breeding or husbandry!So I got this email the other day about ORAs new breed of clown fish "Zombie Clowns". Reading through this these new clowns look pretty cool, not something I would want myself but I could see the allure to them.
Upon further reading near the bottom of the article theres a little disclaimer stating that contrary to belief these fish aren't blind, but partially blind.
I don't know for sure if this is a byproduct of the particular type of breeding it takes to get this type of clowns or not. But I would think it's somewhat related.
ORA Unleashes Zombie Clownfish on the Masses - CORAL Magazine
It's taken several years, but Robert King's Zombie Albino Black Clownfish will now see wider distribution as a result of breeding efforts by ORA.www.reef2rainforest.com
So my question is, do you think we have gone too far trying to come up with new patterns of clowns? Have we gone so far as to accept breeding to the point of relatively disabled fish? What are your thoughts on this?
I vote that we haven’t gone too far. In selective breeding it is just that selective. Every domesticated animal out there is not at nature would have honed them. We are the selecting agent in domesticated breeds and these clown are domesticated. I personally have no desire for a nearly blind clownfish and my dollars wouldn’t advance that byproduct trait. However I think effort in selective breeding should continue. If done responsibly great new designed fish can be produced. I like the pug point though. I don’t want a dog that limited but some do. Others are fine with labs and hip problems.
Christopher Peters
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I think the aberrant clowns look ridiculous. Always thought they looked a little to inbred for what I'd personally keep in my tank, but to each his own lol. If they're breeding them now with health defects, that isn't fair to the animal. Aquarist should try to provide some semblance of enjoyment for what is essentially life in a glass box, if they're robbing the poor things of there vision..........I don't understand the logic. How can a sightless clown fish look better?
JoshH
Tank Status: Wet...ish, growing things....
We are breeding clownfish as well. But we are a small facility, and you can obtain more info in my build thread that is in the signature. In my opinion, no one should release a partially blind fish if this is true. I can't understand it personally. We should breed them to have cool patterns, not "cool" defects. Sure, there is such thing as perfect imperfection, but partially blind doesn't fit into category for me.
Now about the initial question in this thread. I think breeding clownfish is extremely valuable for our hobby and our planet. I know what you are thinking:"How are you helping with your small facility?" And it's true, comparing to the large breeding facilities we're not helping that much to relieve the pressure on the oceans, which is the primary goal. But I'm not looking at this from this point of view. I want to help and be part of it, and we have a specific amount of time that we can dedicate for breeding in my life with my wife. I'm taking this time and putting all my efforts into it. Yes, compared to the large breeders, my help is MINIMAL. But I know that I'm using all the power and resources that I have available. That's mean for me - I'm doing my MAXIMUM to help release the pressure. This is all I can give, and I'm proud of it. This is why I'm so open also to share all the details about breeding. To help others to succeed in this in case they want to try as well.
So no, we are not gone too far, but breeders should control their desire for income and release only healthy fish. And that a fish ACT NORMAL when born partially blind, is not a sign that this fish is healthy they adapt to what they have as they never got anything else, this is how they were born.
I have nothing against fish that are captive bred, I think it's absolutely fantastic and I'd happily pay a premium for them BUT I just don't like the direction it's going that's all. I think it's great there are small and large operations alike but I hope this trend doesn't continue much further and I certainly hope it doesn't spread across the industry.
mpedersen
Community Member
Most all albinos have issues with visual acuity. This is nothing new, nor specific to this fish.
Back when I bred freshwater angelfish varieties (Pterophyllum), the albino forms were much more difficult to rear. For starters, they would go blind IF reared in bright light from the get-go, but if you reared them in dim light until they had grown a bit, their vision was not dramatically reduced. Another aspect of rearing them was that they are smaller fry, which meant that they would fail to consume regular Great Salt Lake strain brine shrimp nauplii; they required San Fransicso Bay nauplii as the initial feed. Furthermore, if they had normally-colored siblings, then the albinos would have to be separated from them, otherwise the regularly pigmented fish would outcompete their albino siblings.
But if you took these extra steps and cared for the fishes correctly in the early stages, the albino angels grew to be every bit as vigorous as any other domesticated angelfish.
Since this is also a single-gene mutation and a recessive trait, it is arguably easy to "breed out" if it was deemed undesirable.
So as it relates to the original fish in question, we have to remember that (in my opinion) Clownfish are really the guppies of the marine aquarium world and are being rapidly domesticated. I can understand the very valid concern that if a genetic mutation is ultimately harmful to the fish, it perhaps should not be perpetuated. Given that albinism is rather ubiquitous, easily understood, and really just not that big a deal, I don't feel these fish cross the line.
I have to remind anyone reading this opinion that in 2006, I thought Picasso Percula would be the death of the three stripe clownfish. That opinion and concern was formed long before I understood the origins of the Picasso Percula, nor how the genetics worked. With that deeper understanding my viewpoint was changed. It seems that most clownfish breeders have been willing to be somewhat transparent about what they're producing, which is a good ethic to encourage.
Man-made fish can absolutely go too far, but genetic mutations really aren't an issue for me unless they're truly detrimental to the fishes' quality of life. Impaired vision really isn't a major concern to me if the fish are able to navigate and eat (ORA wouldn't be able to raise these fish otherwise). It could even be that as ORA continues to work with these fish they might find ways to improve on this through larviculture tweaks, just as freshwater angelfish breeders figured out with their own problem fish.
ORA is being transparent. Ultimately, transparency goes a long way towards a middle ground where everyone can potentially be happy. E.g. from the recent AMAZONAS Issue "Man-Made Fishes" - https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2019/08/19/transparency-lessons-from-the-orchid-community/
Back when I bred freshwater angelfish varieties (Pterophyllum), the albino forms were much more difficult to rear. For starters, they would go blind IF reared in bright light from the get-go, but if you reared them in dim light until they had grown a bit, their vision was not dramatically reduced. Another aspect of rearing them was that they are smaller fry, which meant that they would fail to consume regular Great Salt Lake strain brine shrimp nauplii; they required San Fransicso Bay nauplii as the initial feed. Furthermore, if they had normally-colored siblings, then the albinos would have to be separated from them, otherwise the regularly pigmented fish would outcompete their albino siblings.
But if you took these extra steps and cared for the fishes correctly in the early stages, the albino angels grew to be every bit as vigorous as any other domesticated angelfish.
Since this is also a single-gene mutation and a recessive trait, it is arguably easy to "breed out" if it was deemed undesirable.
So as it relates to the original fish in question, we have to remember that (in my opinion) Clownfish are really the guppies of the marine aquarium world and are being rapidly domesticated. I can understand the very valid concern that if a genetic mutation is ultimately harmful to the fish, it perhaps should not be perpetuated. Given that albinism is rather ubiquitous, easily understood, and really just not that big a deal, I don't feel these fish cross the line.
I have to remind anyone reading this opinion that in 2006, I thought Picasso Percula would be the death of the three stripe clownfish. That opinion and concern was formed long before I understood the origins of the Picasso Percula, nor how the genetics worked. With that deeper understanding my viewpoint was changed. It seems that most clownfish breeders have been willing to be somewhat transparent about what they're producing, which is a good ethic to encourage.
Man-made fish can absolutely go too far, but genetic mutations really aren't an issue for me unless they're truly detrimental to the fishes' quality of life. Impaired vision really isn't a major concern to me if the fish are able to navigate and eat (ORA wouldn't be able to raise these fish otherwise). It could even be that as ORA continues to work with these fish they might find ways to improve on this through larviculture tweaks, just as freshwater angelfish breeders figured out with their own problem fish.
ORA is being transparent. Ultimately, transparency goes a long way towards a middle ground where everyone can potentially be happy. E.g. from the recent AMAZONAS Issue "Man-Made Fishes" - https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2019/08/19/transparency-lessons-from-the-orchid-community/
scvc620
Community Member
Is this really any different than the puppy mills we all disdain? Science is a wonderful thing, use it to make the breed better, not worse.
Wrong.....it's just wrong
Personally I am not a fan of the designer clownfish range but as long as they are healthy it's all good...but to deliberately continue to breed ones with health/visual issues and to continue to do so is not fair
Hopefully a lack of purchases will put an end to this line
Personally I am not a fan of the designer clownfish range but as long as they are healthy it's all good...but to deliberately continue to breed ones with health/visual issues and to continue to do so is not fair
Hopefully a lack of purchases will put an end to this line
Why compare dogs? It doesn't make it any better. I'm not against breeding different patterns and colors but I'm not ok with breeding a fish knowing its eyesight is affected. Please explain how this is science breeding for the better when a mutation causes some blindness just so someone can say I have a zombie clownfish?
salty joe
Well-Known Member
I never liked them at all. Any of them. Inbred freaks. The blind/bad eyes thing probably was a byproduct of inbreeding and someone said 'hey zombies are the in thing!'.
When I was a kid I was completely turned off with long finned zebra fish. That attitude hasn't changed at all.
When I was a kid I was completely turned off with long finned zebra fish. That attitude hasn't changed at all.
I have some serious ethical concerns about this mindset. To be polite, I’d love to see where you’ve found such definitive proof that fish can’t “suffer” keeping in mind that the term itself is very subjective. Fish have absolutely been know to show anthropomorphic qualities of both distress and loneliness when placed in comprised environments. I myself did a study (if I can find it I’ll post it here) on a fishes ability to feel pain and my finding based mainly on available metadata were inconclusive at best. I really think that the age old “goldfish brained” or reptilian brain argument leads the way to minimize the respect less evolved form of life desire just as well as any other animal.
With all do respect, this statement doesn’t speak to the claims made in a previous statement nor the question at hand. The issue simply evolves around the ethics of selectively breeding fish, knowing the outcome will produce individuals which are less fit than there progeny and may have difficulty within there life expectancy due to something which could have simply be avoided. (e.g., partial blindness, exaggerated fin size, deformed body composition etc.) we as consumers also have a responsibility to put companies in check when they take things to far, doing so with the almighty dollar.
Goldfish are a shining example of how selected traits can become exaggerated overtime with heavy selectivity in breeding and have negative consequences for the animal. I do love my goldfish though
Because they lack a dorsal fin these fish can be rather slow. Additionally, if the wen covers the eyes it can significantly impair their vision. All this means they won’t be able to compete for food with more “able-bodied” tankmates. In fact, they should ideally be kept in an aquarium containing only other ranchus and lionheads, although other slow varieties work as well.
Monstrosities have been created before and will again. I have never kept any of these kind of fish but I know about them
Dogs are a terribly perfect example of selective breeding and in my opinion an excellent example in how selectivity for traits or appearance can lead to horrible health impairments. I mean, have you seen a pug? Haha I digress...
Fishboy42
Community Member
From a producer perspective, our decisions on which varieties to raise (fortunately or unfortunately) are often driven by the market. When I first started breeding and selling fish as Sustainable Aquatics (rather than just in the basement at my parents' house), I had to think about what people wanted, and at the time, designer clowns were not very commonly available, but customers were asking for them, so that's what I did! I purchased a dozen breeding pairs of interesting designer clowns from a breeder friend, and we were off to the races!
Personally I wanted to work on "wild-type" clowns and especially geographic variants and species with restricted ranges: The white-tail cinnamon and percula species from the Solomon Islands, the "Sunkist" pink skunk from Fiji, the Tricinctus clown from the Marshall Islands, Chrysopterus, East-African Allardis, Madagascar Latifasciatus, Orange skunks from Irian Jaya, the Bluestripe Cinnamon from New Caledonia, Blackfoot Clownfish from the Maldives, etc etc etc, but all of those fish (which we produce/have produced) combined don't generate enough revenue to support a business.
Right now we don't have enough "Blacker Ice" to fill orders, so logically we're raising a bunch more of them. Storms? Longfins? Frostbites? Same story with those as well.
Of course (to go off topic), what we really need to do is produce what the hobby wants BEYOND clownfish, which is where a lot of our efforts are going now (projects like tangs, angels, butterflies, wrasses, dartfish, gobies, etc). It's a lot of fun too, and certainly more of a challenge than raising a very valuable batch of black storm clownfish, but that makes it all-the-more rewarding and the reason why many of us breeders keep at it
-Matt
Personally I wanted to work on "wild-type" clowns and especially geographic variants and species with restricted ranges: The white-tail cinnamon and percula species from the Solomon Islands, the "Sunkist" pink skunk from Fiji, the Tricinctus clown from the Marshall Islands, Chrysopterus, East-African Allardis, Madagascar Latifasciatus, Orange skunks from Irian Jaya, the Bluestripe Cinnamon from New Caledonia, Blackfoot Clownfish from the Maldives, etc etc etc, but all of those fish (which we produce/have produced) combined don't generate enough revenue to support a business.
Right now we don't have enough "Blacker Ice" to fill orders, so logically we're raising a bunch more of them. Storms? Longfins? Frostbites? Same story with those as well.
Of course (to go off topic), what we really need to do is produce what the hobby wants BEYOND clownfish, which is where a lot of our efforts are going now (projects like tangs, angels, butterflies, wrasses, dartfish, gobies, etc). It's a lot of fun too, and certainly more of a challenge than raising a very valuable batch of black storm clownfish, but that makes it all-the-more rewarding and the reason why many of us breeders keep at it
-Matt
Charles Washington
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Not gone to far at all....I have never heard of Zombies Clowns???? What color are they???So I got this email the other day about ORAs new breed of clown fish "Zombie Clowns". Reading through this these new clowns look pretty cool, not something I would want myself but I could see the allure to them.
Upon further reading near the bottom of the article theres a little disclaimer stating that contrary to belief these fish aren't blind, but partially blind.
I don't know for sure if this is a byproduct of the particular type of breeding it takes to get this type of clowns or not. But I would think it's somewhat related.
ORA Unleashes Zombie Clownfish on the Masses - CORAL Magazine
It's taken several years, but Robert King's Zombie Albino Black Clownfish will now see wider distribution as a result of breeding efforts by ORA.
So my question is, do you think we have gone too far trying to come up with new patterns of clowns? Have we gone so far as to accept breeding to the point of relatively disabled fish? What are your thoughts on this?
I have mixed feelings about dogs. Most dog breeds were created to fill certain tasks and those are the types I have always kept. Working dogs were judged by their work and not how they looked. A long time ago I was involved with dog breeding and showing. When it became about creating winning show dogs I watched a lot of breeds destroyed. Instead of paying fees to mix lines breeders inbred their own dogs. Suddenly healthy breads started having horrendous problems. Puppy mill breeders do the same thing.
The original bearded collie stock of working dogs looked like this. An athletic working dog with a rough coat for outside with strong herding instincts.
They turned them into this
We quit.
My mothers original female looked like this and did herding trials. That was Brie.
But eventually you had to have this to win a show.
My dad with Sonny. Her second female of American stock.
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