Do you think we have gone too far with clownfish breeding?

[mfinn]

I remember when I had breeding pairs of discus and freshwater angels.
The odd ones were culled.

 

[WVNed]

So were the bad dog lines originally. They where not killed, just fixed and kept as pets, usually given away.
Then that money thing happened and people destroyed what they claimed to love once again.

 

[Phildago]

I have some serious ethical concerns about this mindset. To be polite, I’d love to see where you’ve found such definitive proof that fish can’t “suffer” keeping in mind that the term itself is very subjective. Fish have absolutely been know to show anthropomorphic qualities of both distress and loneliness when placed in comprised environments. I myself did a study (if I can find it I’ll post it here) on a fishes ability to feel pain and my finding based mainly on available metadata were inconclusive at best. I really think that the age old “goldfish brained” or reptilian brain argument leads the way to minimize the respect less evolved form of life desire just as well as any other animal.

They don't have a neocortex. Of course they can respond to pain, since they do have nociceptors, but they're literally missing the neural hardware to suffer. There's no ethical concerns with this because you don't need to feel empathy for something to have respect for it.

Do you have ethical concerns with doctors using antibiotics? I do. It's not because they're literally killing millions of organisms to decrease a person's pain by a day or two, and the bacteria are suffering. It's because they're killing millions of organisms for no reason, and that can have an impact on the individual being treated, and future generations.

With all do respect, this statement doesn’t speak to the claims made in a previous statement nor the question at hand. The issue simply evolves around the ethics of selectively breeding fish, knowing the outcome will produce individuals which are less fit than there progeny and may have difficulty within there life expectancy due to something which could have simply be avoided. (e.g., partial blindness, exaggerated fin size, deformed body composition etc.) we as consumers also have a responsibility to put companies in check when they take things to far, doing so with the almighty dollar.

It speaks directly to it. His statement was saying that moles have substituted senses and that's not how evolution works. If the mole had endless food being dropped in front of it, then it would've been blind and had no sense of smell and probably no hearing either. Animals don't substitute senses because there is some predetermined baseline required to meet. The mole developed a sense of smell because that is required for finding its food, while the sense of sight degenerated because it wasn't necessary, a stark difference than if it degenerated due to necessity to allow the sense of smell to become more acute.

I'd like you to explain what makes these clownfish less fit. They're being bred, thriving, and (this is and assumption based on if there being a desire for them) more likely to be purchased for an aquarium. That makes them more fit for their environment, the home aquarium. A place where competition is minimal and controlled, mating is predetermined, food is easily accessible, and there is no predation.

 

[Berlibee]

Me too ! Please

I have nothing against fish that are captive bred, I think it's absolutely fantastic and I'd happily pay a premium for them BUT I just don't like the direction it's going that's all. I think it's great there are small and large operations alike but I hope this trend doesn't continue much further and I certainly hope it doesn't spread across the industry.

I'm with you on this. it's on conscience of each breeder to control how far we go. Personally I'm not ready to go that far and release something similar.

 

[Fishboy42]

Well they don’t have longfinned perculas

 

[fcmatt]

"In 1958 the Siamese breed standard again was altered and the colours chocolate point and lilac point were added. In these times the look of our Siamese began to change, a change that lasts until today.

In her 1967 published book "Siamese Cats Past and Present" Greta Hindley warns for this change: "Breeders of today have come to consider "type" as the most important point about a Siamese. This is all to the good, but do not let us carry it to extremes like some breeders have done with dogs, and so spoil a very beautiful animal, by making it unpleasing and ugly. We are tending that way, and that way danger lies; some heads are becoming too narrow at the top, and eyes too close together.

We can even overdo the length of the head, although this does not matter so much as long as it is well balanced. Ears should be large, but not too large, wide at the base, but always pricked (with not tendency to flop and never pointing to the side), so giving that alert expression which is so characteristic and (with the usual unexpectedness of the Siamese) is rather contradicted by the mysterious sphinx-like expression of the eye, which is often referred to as the "Siamese Expression" or "Siamese Look".

Even bodies can be too long and ungainly, and tails too, so that instead of a neat, dapper little cat with everything well-balanced, we shall at last produce an ungainly beast with not pretension to daintiness."

Sooo.. my point is... fish breeders have barely scratched the surface of this debate and are in the phase of creating monstrosities for pure greed and profit. The last 10-15 years will be looked back on as the the embarrassing years for the fish/clown breeding industry I bet. No moral compass. Just poop out whatever they can to make a buck.

If wild caught is made illegal in a very harsh manner.... 100 years from now one has to wonder finding the original look will be harder then the freaks.

 

[JoshH]

Of course (to go off topic), what we really need to do is produce what the hobby wants BEYOND clownfish, which is where a lot of our efforts are going now (projects like tangs, angels, butterflies, wrasses, dartfish, gobies, etc).

This I feel is a MUCH better path to be taking. Expand the business beyond clowns and focus on other species of fish. It's a much healthier way of expanding a business (Costly as well) but something I can get behind.

Matt, as a side note (Kinda) how do you feel about Longfins? Do you feel they are 100% capable of living in a high flow environment as there normal counterparts can? Are they slower perhaps less agile swimmers in comparison?

 

[Fishboy42]

This I feel is a MUCH better path to be taking. Expand the business beyond clowns and focus on other species of fish. It's a much healthier way of expanding a business (Costly as well) but something I can get behind.

Matt, as a side note (Kinda) how do you feel about Longfins? Do you feel they are 100% capable of living in a high flow environment as there normal counterparts can? Are they slower perhaps less agile swimmers in comparison?

Thanks! Of course that "better path" (and I agree it is btw!) has to be funded through to successful production and sales, and designer clowns have been/are a part of that.

On the longfins - they seem to do just fine in high-flow aquariums even though they may be a bit slower/less agile. Clownfish aren't the best swimmers to begin with, but they don't seem to have any problems.

 

[Robert King]

So I got this email the other day about ORAs new breed of clown fish "Zombie Clowns". Reading through this these new clowns look pretty cool, not something I would want myself but I could see the allure to them.

Upon further reading near the bottom of the article theres a little disclaimer stating that contrary to belief these fish aren't blind, but partially blind.

I don't know for sure if this is a byproduct of the particular type of breeding it takes to get this type of clowns or not. But I would think it's somewhat related.

ORA Unleashes Zombie Clownfish on the Masses - CORAL Magazine

It's taken several years, but Robert King's Zombie Albino Black Clownfish will now see wider distribution as a result of breeding efforts by ORA.

www.reef2rainforest.com

So my question is, do you think we have gone too far trying to come up with new patterns of clowns? Have we gone so far as to accept breeding to the point of relatively disabled fish? What are your thoughts on this?

These Zombie clownfish are F1 first generation from wild caught Black Darwins. It took no particular type of breeding to produce, and they would be in the wild if one or two could've possibly made it. Although bright lights may startle them at first, their is no real problems or concerns with their eyesight. If there was, they would never make it through morph. They are exceptional specimens and I expect them to live as long and as happy as their parents who are now 27 years old. If you look up average life expectancy for clownfish in an aquarium, it will say 5 years. There are currently 8 of the original 8 zombies at around 7 years old and still going strong.

 

[Robert King]

So I got this email the other day about ORAs new breed of clown fish "Zombie Clowns". Reading through this these new clowns look pretty cool, not something I would want myself but I could see the allure to them.

Upon further reading near the bottom of the article theres a little disclaimer stating that contrary to belief these fish aren't blind, but partially blind.

I don't know for sure if this is a byproduct of the particular type of breeding it takes to get this type of clowns or not. But I would think it's somewhat related.

ORA Unleashes Zombie Clownfish on the Masses - CORAL Magazine

It's taken several years, but Robert King's Zombie Albino Black Clownfish will now see wider distribution as a result of breeding efforts by ORA.

www.reef2rainforest.com

So my question is, do you think we have gone too far trying to come up with new patterns of clowns? Have we gone so far as to accept breeding to the point of relatively disabled fish? What are your thoughts on this?

Zombies are no more disabled than a person wearing reading glasses. They are not blind or even partially blind. They are startled by bright lights but have no problem finding and catching live or frozen foods.

 

[Robert King]

I agree, I always thought highly of ORA. I would assume the fish displayed some type of behavior to be declared partially blind.

I believe they're just going by the norm for ocular albinism which can be a sensitivity to light. Their vision is fine as they are able to hunt and catch what they're after with no issues. Don't shine halogens in their eyes and they'll be fine.

 

[JoshH]

These Zombie clownfish are F1 first generation from wild caught Black Darwins. It took no particular type of breeding to produce, and they would be in the wild if one or two could've possibly made it. Although bright lights may startle them at first, their is no real problems or concerns with their eyesight. If there was, they would never make it through morph. They are exceptional specimens and I expect them to live as long and as happy as their parents who are now 27 years old. If you look up average life expectancy for clownfish in an aquarium, it will say 5 years. There are currently 8 of the original 8 zombies at around 7 years old and still going strong.

I'm curious as to who you are? New member with such detailed knowledge of these particular clowns in question and all (Not trying to be snide or anything, genuinely curious). I'm well aware that it took no particular type of breeding to get these clowns and that's not where my issue lies, the issue lies in purposefully rebreeding to get the same results.

I also think that the average lifespan of clowns in aquaria is an irrelevant point. Plenty of clowns live into to there 30's and beyond, I don't think that 5 year average can be directly correlated to the expected lifespan in an aquarium. I feel the 5 years is averaged out with losses from inexperienced reefers, equipment failures and so on, none of which should be considered when looking at the actual expected life span of an animal.

Thank you for your insight though. Good to hear a little more back story to it all.

 

[Robert King]

So I got this email the other day about ORAs new breed of clown fish "Zombie Clowns". Reading through this these new clowns look pretty cool, not something I would want myself but I could see the allure to them.

Upon further reading near the bottom of the article theres a little disclaimer stating that contrary to belief these fish aren't blind, but partially blind.

I don't know for sure if this is a byproduct of the particular type of breeding it takes to get this type of clowns or not. But I would think it's somewhat related.

ORA Unleashes Zombie Clownfish on the Masses - CORAL Magazine

It's taken several years, but Robert King's Zombie Albino Black Clownfish will now see wider distribution as a result of breeding efforts by ORA.

www.reef2rainforest.com

So my question is, do you think we have gone too far trying to come up with new patterns of clowns? Have we gone so far as to accept breeding to the point of relatively disabled fish? What are your thoughts on this?

I don't believe light sensitivity is a disability. People seem to be making a big deal about nothing. Zombies being F1 fish from wild caught Black Darwins are probably some of the healthiest fish in the hobby. Don't shine bright lights directly in their eyes and they'll be fine.

 

[Anchor]

Ahh yes, the saltwater guppy.. ANything for a buck.. couldn't leave it to nature.. and in case you thought otherwise, add freshwater betta, Angelfish, Discus, Parrotfish<<<< and anything altered for the almighty dollar . I prefer what nature gave us

 

[Robert King]

I'm curious as to who you are? New member with such detailed knowledge of these particular clowns in question and all (Not trying to be snide or anything, genuinely curious). I'm well aware that it took no particular type of breeding to get these clowns and that's not where my issue lies, the issue lies in purposefully rebreeding to get the same results.

I also think that the average lifespan of clowns in aquaria is an irrelevant point. Plenty of clowns live into to there 30's and beyond, I don't think that 5 year average can be directly correlated to the expected lifespan in an aquarium.

Thank you for your insight though.

The parents of these Zombies are 27 and they belong to me. I laughed at the 5 year life expectancy as well but, I don't understand why anyone would be against breeding these beautiful fish with other fish that exhibit different phenotypes. I have never seen any disabilities with my fish with the exception of sudden bright lights. Albinism has been bred into reptiles for years and I don't see people getting up in arms about that. That being said, what kind of person would not defend his babies? lol I think my fish are getting a bad rap!

 

[JoshH]

The parents of these Zombies are 27 and they belong to me. I laughed at the 5 year life expectancy as well but, I don't understand why anyone would be against breeding these beautiful fish with other fish that exhibit different phenotypes. I have never seen any disabilities with my fish with the exception of sudden bright lights. Albinism has been bred into reptiles for years and I don't see people getting up in arms about that. That being said, what kind of person would not defend his babies? lol I think my fish are getting a bad rap!

Excellent to have you here Robert, I really do appreciate you're insight (No pun intended) on the issue. Once again I think the issue isn't breeding clowns in general, it's exploting a particular set of offspring that "May or may not" have some sort of physical abnormality that could be detrimental to them in the long run.

And I agree albinism has been bred into other species as well and a lot of people (Myself included) don't really agree with it either if you read back through the thread (It's been brought up before).

Nothing wrong with defending your babies atall and I'm really glad you were able to chime in here on the topic

 

[Gil03]

This really shouldn't be up for debate at all if indeed the partial blindness is due to extensive human intervention breeding habits. If breeder continues to do it in an effort to make money off them then it's ridiculous imo.

 

[Gil03]

Not only do fish not suffer, since we know this from studies that have been done (they don't have neural components necessary to feel pain/suffer), but why do they need good vision. Of course they do in the ocean, but in a home aquarium? Even if they could suffer, I would still argue that impaired vision would not impact the quality of their life. I used the example of the blind cave fish for this reason. There's no advantage to them being blind, it's just not necessary to see so the traits for good vision were never selected for. Or even consider moles, higher order animals that certainly can suffer. I don't think they're suffering from their blindness because they don't need vision to survive.

You do know that not everyone has a small tank with just a couple of inhabitants where you could do your part and greatly increase the chance a single fish is fed. The ability of functional eyesight on par with it's co-inhabitants increases it's chance of survival. The clownfish is not a natural bottom dweller like a cave fish nor does it have increased sensitivity in other areas to overcome the lack of sight. It's ability to forage naturally on par with it's neighbors is hindered and because of that it should be discontinued in the breeding world.

 

[Phildago]

You do know that not everyone has a small tank with just a couple of inhabitants where you could do your part and greatly increase the chance a single fish is fed. The ability of functional eyesight on par with it's co-inhabitants increases it's chance of survival. The clownfish is not a natural bottom dweller like a cave fish nor does it have increased sensitivity in other areas to overcome the lack of sight. It's ability to forage naturally on par with it's neighbors is hindered and because of that it should be discontinued in the breeding world.

I am aware and you're right about not everybody being able to properly care for them. I do feel like this is an owners responsibility though. There's many fish and animals that not everybody is prepared to keep. One fish that immediately comes to mind is a moorish idol, as well as sea horses. Two fish that I would not attempt to keep because I know I don't have the tank for them.. they would do poorly and die.

I don't think no one should have them though just because they wouldn't do well in my tank.

 

[Robert King]

I'm curious as to who you are? New member with such detailed knowledge of these particular clowns in question and all (Not trying to be snide or anything, genuinely curious). I'm well aware that it took no particular type of breeding to get these clowns and that's not where my issue lies, the issue lies in purposefully rebreeding to get the same results.

I also think that the average lifespan of clowns in aquaria is an irrelevant point. Plenty of clowns live into to there 30's and beyond, I don't think that 5 year average can be directly correlated to the expected lifespan in an aquarium. I feel the 5 years is averaged out with losses from inexperienced reefers, equipment failures and so on, none of which should be considered when looking at the actual expected life span of an animal.

Thank you for your insight though. Good to hear a little more back story to it all.

You do know that not everyone has a small tank with just a couple of inhabitants where you could do your part and greatly increase the chance a single fish is fed. The ability of functional eyesight on par with it's co-inhabitants increases it's chance of survival. The clownfish is not a natural bottom dweller like a cave fish nor does it have increased sensitivity in other areas to overcome the lack of sight. It's ability to forage naturally on par with it's neighbors is hindered and because of that it should be discontinued in the breeding world.

You do know that not everyone has a small tank with just a couple of inhabitants where you could do your part and greatly increase the chance a single fish is fed. The ability of functional eyesight on par with it's co-inhabitants increases it's chance of survival. The clownfish is not a natural bottom dweller like a cave fish nor does it have increased sensitivity in other areas to overcome the lack of sight. It's ability to forage naturally on par with it's neighbors is hindered and because of that it should be discontinued in the breeding world

This really shouldn't be up for debate at all if indeed the partial blindness is due to extensive human intervention breeding habits. If breeder continues to do it in an effort to make money off them then it's ridiculous imo.

You do know that not everyone has a small tank with just a couple of inhabitants where you could do your part and greatly increase the chance a single fish is fed. The ability of functional eyesight on par with it's co-inhabitants increases it's chance of survival. The clownfish is not a natural bottom dweller like a cave fish nor does it have increased sensitivity in other areas to overcome the lack of sight. It's ability to forage naturally on par with it's neighbors is hindered and because of that it should be discontinued in the breeding world.

The Zombie clowns forage just fine and at times out competing their non albino siblings for food. Their visual acuity is not an issue but light sensitivity may be. It seems as if lights come on too bright or too fast, the Zombies will briefly seek shady areas. I keep mine under LEDs with no issues.