Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

[DrZoidburg]

Reacting ammonia is one of the approaches we tried. It's complicated to get it to happen safely, and since commercial materials are not available to do so without having nasty stuff loose in the aquarium, I think it unlikely anyone has used such a complex technology.

I agree there. The use in humans vs pets though is much more rigorous, and strict for approvals. I wouldn't be surprised if they did use it that way. It would have its toxic points in those type reactions, and some not as. I guess I'll leave the rest alone.

 

[Malcontent]

I thought I mentioned/shared this paper before but could find no sign of it.

 

[Dan_P]

I thought I mentioned/shared this paper before but could find no sign of it.

Thanks.

Were they measuring free or total ammonia? I don’t have access to the referenced seawater analytical book to see what test method they were using.

Do you think some products might be using formaldehyde to react with ammonia?

 

[QuinnLee512]

So the question here is should I use Prime if I detect ammonia in my QT? Or should I just throw out my bottles of Prime now and do water changes?

 

[brandon429]

per the results here, water changes. the fish forum is using those to set intervention timing for rising ammonia.

 

[Garf]

So the question here is should I use Prime if I detect ammonia in my QT? Or should I just throw out my bottles of Prime now and do water changes?

I would suggest that everyone doubles their efforts not got get an increase in the first place. More mature filter media etc

 

[brandon429]

nice call. not hard to make +1 bubble rising sponge filter addition. cheap.

 

[Dan_P]

So the question here is should I use Prime if I detect ammonia in my QT? Or should I just throw out my bottles of Prime now and do water changes?

Prime can be used to neutralize chlorine.

As for responding to ammonia detection in your QT, you need the following information to decide how to act: total ammonia concentration estimate, pH and temperature of the water. Free ammonia concentration is the problem NOT total ammonia. Free ammonia is calculated from total ammonia, temperature and pH. Free ammonia is usually 10% or less. The fraction of free ammonia decreases as pH declines. You can also use a Seachem ammonia alert badge to measure the free ammonia. Free ammonia is the number to use in deciding what to do.

If I had a QT, it would be dosed with Bio-Spira before I added anything to the aquarium.

 

[QuinnLee512]

Prime can be used to neutralize chlorine.

As for responding to ammonia detection in your QT, you need the following information to decide how to act: total ammonia concentration estimate, pH and temperature of the water. Free ammonia concentration is the problem NOT total ammonia. Free ammonia is calculated from total ammonia, temperature and pH. Free ammonia is usually 10% or less. The fraction of free ammonia decreases as pH declines. You can also use a Seachem ammonia alert badge to measure the free ammonia. Free ammonia is the number to use in deciding what to do.

If I had a QT, it would be dosed with Bio-Spira before I added anything to the aquarium.

There's no time for Bio Spira to work with TTM. If you watch Humblefish's TTM video he says to use Prime. Of course there's all those fish cycling articles out there talking about using prime. Seems like this thread just invalidates all of that.

 

[DrZoidburg]

@QuinnLee512 I would recommend still using it, or do water changes if you need to. Only 2 times I would not use something like this.

 

[taricha]

So the question here is should I use Prime if I detect ammonia in my QT?

Here's my take on the Q. In addition to Biospira as @Dan_P mentioned. (Actual nitrifying bacteria are faster than you think.)

If I wanted to do something I could be sure would help protect fish during an ammonia event:
1) lower pH (7.8 is fine in a pinch, I wouldn't try to push the aragonite buffer around ~7.6)
2) add algae
3) add carbon (vinegar or whatever carbon you already use in your system)
4) add aeration (heterotrophs and nitrifiers both need O2 to work well, and the die-off could push O2 low.)
edit: 5) and y'know... water changes

Those are all incontrovertible and do not require trusting any unsupported manufacturer claims

 

[Dan_P]

There's no time for Bio Spira to work with TTM. If you watch Humblefish's TTM video he says to use Prime. Of course there's all those fish cycling articles out there talking about using prime. Seems like this thread just invalidates all of that.

Correct, Prime‘s questionable claims are invalid. There is absolutely no evidence that Prime reduces the amount of ammonia in saltwater. Also note, Seachem has never presented any evidence beyond anecdotal data about fish health to support their claims. If you are tempted to consider anecdotal evidence as important, consider the number of people that think Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster is real.

There are other products that claim to deal with ammonia we have not tested. You might want to test them yourself using a Seachem ammonia alert badge.

Why does Seachem Prime seem to work? One likely reason is that most people confuse total ammonia concentration with free ammonia concentration. Free ammonia concentration is typically much lower than the total and not the cause of their fish’s distress.

 

[brandon429]

@DrZoidburg as a fellow spectator I’m asking you to exit

with me, let’s discuss in your nitrite thread.




your recommend above seems merely spiteful, counter points were not received well enough to justify writing that. Please cease posting here further - we will watch Dan and Taricha work.


Dr. Z post only in the threads you’ve created. We can both exit so the study can proceed without interruption, it dawned on me after my post below. You and I both can discuss your claims made here in your work thread about nitrite, I just bumped it for discuss. lets both post there and simply watch this thread unfold without any form of distraction, your counter claims weren't accepted here as valid so we should only watch from afar, both you and I. You wouldn’t continue advising about use of Prime here.

 

[taricha]

Hah, appreciate the enthusiasm, Brandon ...but chill.
If someone wants to say they'd use a product anyway, despite there being no evidence it does what it says, and lots of evidence it doesn't, they certainly can.

 

[brandon429]

No, I believe his intentions are to derail, across multiple posts as a stark extended pattern so that was stated. the request wasn’t going to be honored but I wanted to ask anyway as a reader. We can see if future inputs from Dr. Z are of honest intent.


after your response to his challenge thread, that doesn’t seem to be a heartfelt assertion above.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, let's keep focused on the topic.

 

[Frogspon]

Is it possible that Prime does not work the way they think, or advertise, but still actually works?

Perhaps it is a prophylactic coating inside the fish that protects them from ammonia for a short time?

This would be much more complicated for Seachem to market to the masses than just saying it detoxifies ammonia. . but similar to water conditioner products like API Stress Coat.

 

[a.t.t.r]

So no real science here but at the LfS I used to work for we would get freshwater fish shipped overnight with 50-100+ fish in a bag. We had lots of loss during drip acclimation until we started adding a capful of prime to each bag upon opening which dropped loss to near zero.

 

[brandon429]

I had asked Dan about that in chat prior as well a.t.t.r

 

[DrZoidburg]

@brandon429 Sorry seems only 1 other person in thread can actually understand possible mechanisms I described. Not trying to derail anyones threads. If You want my real opinion on this I think it works in 2 ways.