Don't use Prazipro to food soak

[Humblefish]

I sometimes get asked if it's okay to use Prazipro in food for treating intestinal worms, and up until now I never had a reason to say, "Don't do it." Until I read this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19555752

The use of solubilizing agents to improve the solubility of poorly water-soluble drugs often results in an alteration of intestinal membrane barrier function and intestinal membrane damage.

The study doesn't specifically mention oxybispropanol (the solubilizing agent used in Prazipro), but IMO it's just not worth the risk.

Therefore, I recommend only food soaking powdered medications which will not contain any liquid solubilizing agent. Examples of these include Praziquantel, Levamisole, Fenbendazole or Piperazine powder for deworming purposes. Straight Metronidazole powder to treat internal flagellates / parasitic diplomonads.

API General Cure contains both prazi + metro in powder form, and is probably the easiest all-purpose internal parasite/worm medication for hobbyists to source.

As always, dosing the water sometimes helps with internal problems as fish will absorb the medication + drink the water. However, food soaking is generally more effective (for internal issues) as the medication gets delivered through the GI tract where the pathogens actually live. Using a binder (e.g. Seachem Focus) makes feeding most of the above medications reef safe, and also greatly reduces the loss of medication to the water through diffusion.

 

[4FordFamily]

Thanks man, that’s great information! Thanks for fighting the good fight and paving the way for the rest of us!

 

[jay06705]

Thank you for the information!

 

[reef lover]

Good to know!

 

[WMR]

Once again Dr Fish, info is excellent

 

[AZMSGT]

Outstanding work Doc!

 

[Ferrell]

Outstanding, thanks Dr Fish

 

[saltwaterpicaso]

Is this for fish in quarantine only or will it work for fish in the main display as well

 

[Singspot]

I sometimes get asked if it's okay to use Prazipro in food for treating intestinal worms, and up until now I never had a reason to say, "Don't do it." Until I read this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19555752


The study doesn't specifically mention oxybispropanol (the solubilizing agent used in Prazipro), but IMO it's just not worth the risk.

Therefore, I recommend only food soaking powdered medications which will not contain any liquid solubilizing agent. Examples of these include Praziquantel, Levamisole, Fenbendazole or Piperazine powder for deworming purposes. Straight Metronidazole powder to treat internal flagellates / parasitic diplomonads.

API General Cure contains both prazi + metro in powder form, and is probably the easiest all-purpose internal parasite/worm medication for hobbyists to source.

As always, dosing the water sometimes helps with internal problems as fish will absorb the medication + drink the water. However, food soaking is generally more effective (for internal issues) as the medication gets delivered through the GI tract where the pathogens actually live. Using a binder (e.g. Seachem Focus) makes feeding most of the above medications reef safe, and also greatly reduces the loss of medication to the water through diffusion.

When i soak frozen with General Cure (and focus) my Anemones shrink completely... untill i extract out the meds using carbon ...

Are there articles on soaking food in meds? How long to soak food how many days to administer medicated food? And what is best practice around removal of med remnants...?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

When i soak frozen with General Cure (and focus) my Anemones shrink completely... untill i extract out the meds using carbon ...

Are there articles on soaking food in meds? How long to soak food how many days to administer medicated food? And what is best practice around removal of med remnants...?

Medicated foods are difficult to dose correctly. When you soak foods in a medication, it rinses off into your tank water just as fast. It is much better to make medicated gel diet, where the medication is bound into the food.

Here is my article on the topic: (I think you may have seen this)

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods Jay Hemdal c. 2020 Oral medications are an excellent way to target internal diseases of fishes. Marine fish absorb aquarium water, so in certain cases, they “drink” enough medication from the water to effect a cure. However, freshwater fish actively export...

www.reef2reef.com

Then there is this medicated food calculator:

Fish Weight Calculator / Medicated Fish Food Mix Calculator

If you follow threads on the Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis forum, you know that whenever oral medication is the recommended treatment, @Jay Hemdal cautions that achieving the proper dosage is critical to success. He often refers to his article Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods. That...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Singspot]

I sometimes get asked if it's okay to use Prazipro in food for treating intestinal worms, and up until now I never had a reason to say, "Don't do it." Until I read this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19555752


The study doesn't specifically mention oxybispropanol (the solubilizing agent used in Prazipro), but IMO it's just not worth the risk.

Therefore, I recommend only food soaking powdered medications which will not contain any liquid solubilizing agent. Examples of these include Praziquantel, Levamisole, Fenbendazole or Piperazine powder for deworming purposes. Straight Metronidazole powder to treat internal flagellates / parasitic diplomonads.

API General Cure contains both prazi + metro in powder form, and is probably the easiest all-purpose internal parasite/worm medication for hobbyists to source.

As always, dosing the water sometimes helps with internal problems as fish will absorb the medication + drink the water. However, food soaking is generally more effective (for internal issues) as the medication gets delivered through the GI tract where the pathogens actually live. Using a binder (e.g. Seachem Focus) makes feeding most of the above medications reef safe, and also greatly reduces the loss of medication to the water through diffusion.

Thanks for sharing info. I have mostly Anemones, Gonis, Torches, Hammars, Acan, Zoa and some "hardy" sps. If I soak food in General Cure, dry the food and drop "medicated dry food" in reef tank (say for 2-3 small targeted feeding- 20 soaked pellets in 240 Gallom tank) - will the meteonof GC hurt my corals?

(I plan to add medicated food this week Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. On Thursday night add Prazi in water. On Friday after feeding medicated food, change 25% of water, carbon, etc.)

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for sharing info. I have mostly Anemones, Gonis, Torches, Hammars, Acan, Zoa and some "hardy" sps. If I soak food in General Cure, dry the food and drop "medicated dry food" in reef tank (say for 2-3 small targeted feeding- 20 soaked pellets in 240 Gallom tank) - will the meteonof GC hurt my corals?

(I plan to add medicated food this week Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. On Thursday night add Prazi in water. On Friday after feeding medicated food, change 25% of water, carbon, etc.)

No, you shouldn’t do that as you have no way to know what your dose is. Also, General Cure is a mix of praziquantel and metronidazole. Those two drugs are dosed at different rates orally, so you can’t use GC in food. Well you can, but the dose will be wrong for one drug or the other.

Jay

 

[Singspot]

I see, so a couple of follow up questions
1. Is there any "medicine soaked with food" recommended for internal parasite (particularly white stringy poop)?

2. If yes, what medicines and what is the soaking process?

3. Is it ok to put the medicated food in reef aquarium for say 2 feedings (and do full doze of prazipro after 1 day and then chnage 25% water within 72 hpirs of first use of medicated food)?

Thinking of a schedule like this
Day 1 - 2 doze of medicated food
Day 2 - 2 doze of medicated food
Day 2 night - put full doze of Prazipro in water. Stop carbon, gro, uv. Run skimmer without collection box
Day 3 - 2 doze of medocated food
Day 3 night - 25% water change, run carbon, start skim, gfo, uv.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I see, so a couple of follow up questions
1. Is there any "medicine soaked with food" recommended for internal parasite (particularly white stringy poop)?

2. If yes, what medicines and what is the soaking process?

3. Is it ok to put the medicated food in reef aquarium for say 2 feedings (and do full doze of prazipro after 1 day and then chnage 25% water within 72 hpirs of first use of medicated food)?

Thinking of a schedule like this
Day 1 - 2 doze of medicated food
Day 2 - 2 doze of medicated food
Day 2 night - put full doze of Prazipro in water. Stop carbon, gro, uv. Run skimmer without collection box
Day 3 - 2 doze of medocated food
Day 3 night - 25% water change, run carbon, start skim, gfo, uv.

"Stringy poop" can have multiple causes, so there is no single medication to treat it. Soaking food does not work, since the medication will wash out just as fast as it soaked in, so you never know how much medication is in the food when the fish eats it. If you bind the medication to the food with gelatin or Focus, that works.

The dose for metronidazole is 1% medication in food. Praziquantel is dosed at 50mg per kg of fish weight daily for three days.

Here is a write up I did on mucus in fish feces:

Excess mucus in fish feces: this will present as white or light colored, stringy fecal material that often
hangs from the fish’s anus for a longer than normal period. There are a number of different causes for
this, some benign, others very serious. Without access to a microscope, there is little that can be done to
diagnose this issue effectively.

Idiopathic mucus feces: this fancy term is just to describe white mucoid bulky feces of no
serious consequence, but of an unknown cause. Some suspicion is that this can be caused by changes in
diet or diets high in fats.

Starvation: Fish that have no food moving through their bowels may excrete white mucoid feces
with little bulk to them. The primary diagnostic for this issue is evident in that the fish won’t been seen to
be eating. Resolving the anorexia is of course the prime focus to resolve this issue.

Bacterial infection: internal bacterial infections can cause stringy feces as well. While some of
these may resolve on their own, medicated foods containing a broad spectrum, gram negative oral
antibiotic may be required.

Metazoan infections: multicellular worms are often blamed for mucoid feces, but in reality, they
are almost never the root cause for this, and really, can only be diagnosed through looking for their ova in
fecal samples. Fish can harbor tapeworms and nematodes without producing mucoid feces.

Protozoan infection: Hexamita and related diplomonad flagellate protozoans very frequently
cause white stringy feces, especially in newly acquired clownfish. Metronidazole is the most frequent
treatment for this issue. It can be dosed orally at 25 mg per kg of fish body weight, or 5 g in a kg of food.
However, it is a very bitter medication, and some fish will refuse to feed on food containing it. It can be
dosed in the water at 25 mg/l, but this is more effective in treating marine fishes, as freshwater fish do not
“drink” aquarium water.

Coccidia: These microscopic, spore-forming, single-celled parasites are common diseases in
dogs and cats. In fish, they cause epithelial necrosis of the gut, enteritis and the copious production of
mucus (Noga 2010). These cannot be diagnosed without microscopic examination, and there is no well
researched cure for this in fishes, although Toltrazuril has been tested.

Constipation: This malady is often given as a cause for stringy feces, but it is not as common as
one would think. When it is seen, the feces are usually dark, not light in color. Often touted as a “cure
for constipation”, many aquarists add Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) to the aquarium’s water – do not
do this in marine aquariums, its use is primarily as a tonic/dip for freshwater fish. Seawater formulas
already contain between 7 and 19 grams of magnesium sulfate per gallon (depending on the recipe). NSW
magnesium level is around 1200 ppm and sulfur is around 840 ppm. Some benefit might be seen using it
as a dip in additional concentrations, but adding a small amount to a marine aquarium itself has no
benefit. Epsom salts do have some possible benefit when mixed into the food as a 3% by weight adjunct.
Another commonly heard remedy for constipation is; “feed fresh peas”. This is an effective cure for
fancy goldfish and Malawi cichlids that develop constipation and bloating. Again, overextrapolation has
marine aquarists trying to feed peas to carnivorous fish, etc. The best method to enhance gut motility in
fish is to feed frozen adult brine shrimp – not as a permanent diet, just long enough to get the constipation
resolved.

Jay

 

[Singspot]

Really appreciate the detailed response Jay!

So is "Food soaked with medicine" recommended at all or is that practically a no-no?

I had come across your post to this thead (middle of the page), found it simple and was going to run 3 meals with General cure medication followed by full prazipro in Main Tank for "Internal Parasite".

Should I not do medicated food (and just do Prazi)?

The symptoms i am trying to treat is
1. I had added 2 new fish in sump that died after 4 and 7 days in Sump with no visible sign. I am suspecting fluke. Though i could not ascertain.
2. My Qyoii and Bicolor goatfish in main tank are showing a bit of "sunken belly" for 1 month ... though both are eating and swimming well

I wanted to do a round of internal parasite treatment proactively/ preemptively - as i had 2 new fish deaths but no active signs in main tank so do not want to go thru QT process, that is not possible anyway given i have 20+ large fish and tank full of corals in main tank.

White stringy poop after prazipro x2

I would keep going with metro; however if there's any way you could also obtain praziquantel and/or fenbendazole, try food soaking those medications as well. I have prazipro.. How would I go about soaking that in the food ? I have focus so do I just do a scoop of food , focus but then how much...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Really appreciate the detailed response Jay!

So is "Food soaked with medicine" recommended at all or is that practically a no-no?

I had come across your post to this thead (middle of the page), found it simple and was going to run 3 meals with General cure medication followed by full prazipro in Main Tank for "Internal Parasite".

Should I not do medicated food (and just do Prazi)?

The symptoms i am trying to treat is
1. I had added 2 new fish in sump that died after 4 and 7 days in Sump with no visible sign. I am suspecting fluke. Though i could not ascertain.
2. My Qyoii and Bicolor goatfish in main tank are showing a bit of "sunken belly" for 1 month ... though both are eating and swimming well

I wanted to do a round of internal parasite treatment proactively/ preemptively - as i had 2 new fish deaths but no active signs in main tank so do not want to go thru QT process, that is not possible anyway given i have 20+ large fish and tank full of corals in main tank.

White stringy poop after prazipro x2

I would keep going with metro; however if there's any way you could also obtain praziquantel and/or fenbendazole, try food soaking those medications as well. I have prazipro.. How would I go about soaking that in the food ? I have focus so do I just do a scoop of food , focus but then how much...

www.reef2reef.com

Soaking food in medication or vitamins is so often done, but simply cannot be the correct dose except by pure luck. It is like your doctor throwing a handful of pills at you and telling you to take however many you catch.

What two fish were added to the sump? That is often not a good environment for new fish. It is also difficult to see symptoms of disease in those fish in a sump. I doubt they died from flukes unless they had an heavy infection when you got them - flukes take many weeks to kill a fish.

Parrotfish and goatfish often have food absorption problems in captivity, getting thin, not due to parasites, but improper diet, lack of eating enough food, etc. It could also be internal parasites though.

You can't use GC in your DT, but you can dose it with Praziquantel.

Here is my article on medicated food:

Some Helpful Hints When Posting or Responding to Threads in the Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis Section

Aquarium Fish Disease Problem Solving Determining the best course of action for a problem with your aquarium can be a difficult task. Even advanced aquarists will often need to seek the help of others for complicated or unique issues. Our intent here on Reef 2 Reef is to offer expert advice...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Singspot]

My sump is 50G with 20G Refugium chamber and this area has half space with "bio bricks", one GFO media reactor. It has good coral grade LED lighting as i use this space for fish and coral "seclusion" (bad behaving fish or BTA on move (in a cage) .

The two fishes that died were 5 inch Midas Blenny (dead pic attached) and 4 inch Foxface.

The midas was shy from day 1 but ate very well and then just died on day 4 while Fox face was eating well until day 6 and just died on day 7 ...

 

[Jay Hemdal]

My sump is 50G with 20G Refugium chamber and this area has half space with "bio bricks", one GFO media reactor. It has good coral grade LED lighting as i use this space for fish and coral "seclusion" (bad behaving fish or BTA on move (in a cage) .

The two fishes that died were 5 inch Midas Blenny (dead pic attached) and 4 inch Foxface.

The midas was shy from day 1 but ate very well and then just died on day 4 while Fox face was eating well until day 6 and just died on day 7 ...

Wow - I've not seen a midas that large.

When two newly acquired fish die that soon, and in other fish are not affected, I have to start wondering if they had an issue when you got them - notably, some fish are still collected with cyanide. This can cause increased fish loss in the first 40 days or so after capture. Do you have any idea where these fish were collected?

Jay

 

[Singspot]

The LFS got the fishes from "Quality Marine". Did not ask more questions (locations, etc) - i suspect some issues with the batch too ... attached i picture of my Midas after it died. I do not have pic of Foxface but both had "black film" like stuff on their dead body .. but 0 signs of any ither issues that i could see. No white spots, no fluke i saw, no twitching of body no rubbing on surfaces ... just that the day befire they died they were very shy ... so certainly they had something...

A third fish (CBB) from same batch died similarly in a different tank. It ate and looked very well for 1 week and then developed dark path on upper part of body and then died within 1 day.

I was to add the 3 fish to large main tank together .. CBB to eat aiptesia, foxface to provide dispersion of aggression on new fish and Midas I just love ...

Now with all 3 gone, i bought 2 pepermint shrimp and they cleaned out the Aiptesia...