Dose or no dose

[Steve1500]

Hello, I am a newbie and my 75G tank was cycled a few weeks ago. Other than LR and Live sand, I have no livestock in the tank. I plan to start adding fish in a few weeks after I quarantine them. I will then add some softies and a few LPS after I get my fish situated. This should happen in about 3-4 months. I did a quick CA test about a week ago and it showed 330 ppm. I did not do an alkalinity test or Mg test, but I will. SG is 1.026 and Ph is about 8.2. Should I be monitoring and/or dosing my CA, alk and Mg (let's assume they are all low) now in prep for the fish or should I wait a few weeks before I add softies or LPS? How important are these elements to beginner fish like clowns, gobies, cardinals, kole tang, foxface lo or inverts?


Same question for my QT. I would assume I would want the same element levels in my QT, correct?


Finally, what is the best way to dose these elements if they are low. Will kalkwasser increase CA or Alk or just maintain?

Thanks in advance,
Steve

 

[Brew12]

Hello, I am a newbie and my 75G tank was cycled a few weeks ago. Other than LR and Live sand, I have no livestock in the tank. I plan to start adding fish in a few weeks after I quarantine them. I will then add some softies and a few LPS after I get my fish situated. This should happen in about 3-4 months. I did a quick CA test about a week ago and it showed 330 ppm. I did not do an alkalinity test or Mg test, but I will. SG is 1.026 and Ph is about 8.2. Should I be monitoring and/or dosing my CA, alk and Mg (let's assume they are all low) now in prep for the fish or should I wait a few weeks before I add softies or LPS? How important are these elements to beginner fish like clowns, gobies, cardinals, kole tang, foxface lo or inverts?


Same question for my QT. I would assume I would want the same element levels in my QT, correct?


Finally, what is the best way to dose these elements if they are low. Will kalkwasser increase CA or Alk or just maintain?

Thanks in advance,
Steve

It isn't important to the fish at all.

The 330 calc test doesn't sound right. What salt are you using and what are you using to measure salinity?

You should have nothing using Alk/Calc in your system right now so you should have no reason to dose. You won't need to dose until after you get coral in your tank and it starts growing. Once you get to that point, and you can measure the drop in Alk/Calc between water changes, then you can start thinking about dosing.

 

[redfishbluefish]

Fish do not need alk, calc and mag. In a new tank without corals the only thing that would consume the three would be coraline algae.....and in a new tank, this would be minimal. So your alk, calc and mag numbers are being defined by the levels in whatever salt you are using. Many newbies start their tanks with not dosing, allowing the water changes to maintain proper alk and calc. My feeling is that it's a great time to start learning about testing and getting comfortable with test kits. I'd recommend picking up alk, calc and mag test kits and start testing. You can then start to consider how you wish to start maintaining these numbers.....limewater (kalk), two part, etc.

 

[Steve1500]

Thanks! I am using Brightwells Aquatics Neomarine salt. Since it was my first time testing, I may have done it wrong. Like redfishbluefish reccs, I think I will ge more familiar w my testing kits. This gives me some time to learn some more before I do anything in error.

 

[Brew12]

Thanks! I am using Brightwells Aquatics Neomarine salt. Since it was my first time testing, I may have done it wrong. Like redfishbluefish reccs, I think I will ge more familiar w my testing kits. This gives me some time to learn some more before I do anything in error.

Good plan. Just so you know, that salt should mix up around 370ppm to 390ppm at 1.026. Your 330 calc is most likely a test kit error or your salinity is lower than you think it is.

 

[mta_morrow]

Good plan. Just so you know, that salt should mix up around 370ppm to 390ppm at 1.026. Your 330 calc is most likely a test kit error or your salinity is lower than you think it is.

Agreed. It’s the only salt I use and is very consistent. Mixes very well too!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hello, I am a newbie and my 75G tank was cycled a few weeks ago. Other than LR and Live sand, I have no livestock in the tank. I plan to start adding fish in a few weeks after I quarantine them. I will then add some softies and a few LPS after I get my fish situated. This should happen in about 3-4 months. I did a quick CA test about a week ago and it showed 330 ppm. I did not do an alkalinity test or Mg test, but I will. SG is 1.026 and Ph is about 8.2. Should I be monitoring and/or dosing my CA, alk and Mg (let's assume they are all low) now in prep for the fish or should I wait a few weeks before I add softies or LPS? How important are these elements to beginner fish like clowns, gobies, cardinals, kole tang, foxface lo or inverts?


Same question for my QT. I would assume I would want the same element levels in my QT, correct?


Finally, what is the best way to dose these elements if they are low. Will kalkwasser increase CA or Alk or just maintain?

Thanks in advance,
Steve

Kalkwasser will boost alk and calcium together (2.8 dKH for each 20 ppm of calcium), but way too much alk for a significant calcium boost since alk will go through the roof

I agree its not a big deal for fish..

 

[Steve1500]

I have my LPS and few softies in my QT and they will be ready to move to the DT in mid April. I am starting to plan for my dosing regimen but I am a little overwhelmed by all the options. My tank will eventually be a mix of LPS, easier to care for SPS and a few softies.
For newbies, I see the Kalkwasser method is good but I don't have a lot of time and I am away from home quite often with no one to dose for me.

Once my corals are growing and consuming alk/calc, what is the best way to get into dosing? Start w Kalk and phase into 2 part dosing or just go straight to 2 part? How far in advance should I start doing this before they start consuming alk/calc?

Or, until I get my SPS in the tank, do I even need to worry about dosing with just LPS and softies?.....I like to keep my risks to a minimum.

I have a 75G tank, 30G sump. Nothing in the tank yet as the fish and corals are in separate QTs.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Brew12]

I have my LPS and few softies in my QT and they will be ready to move to the DT in mid April. I am starting to plan for my dosing regimen but I am a little overwhelmed by all the options. My tank will eventually be a mix of LPS, easier to care for SPS and a few softies.
For newbies, I see the Kalkwasser method is good but I don't have a lot of time and I am away from home quite often with no one to dose for me.

Once my corals are growing and consuming alk/calc, what is the best way to get into dosing? Start w Kalk and phase into 2 part dosing or just go straight to 2 part? How far in advance should I start doing this before they start consuming alk/calc?

Or, until I get my SPS in the tank, do I even need to worry about dosing with just LPS and softies?.....I like to keep my risks to a minimum.

I have a 75G tank, 30G sump. Nothing in the tank yet as the fish and corals are in separate QTs.

Thanks,
Steve

I've gone the Kalk route on a doser and glad I did. Using it in the ATO was too inconsistent. Right now a 5g bucket of 2tsp/g kalk water will last me for 25 days at my current dosing rate. Very forgiving that way. I can probably double my dosing before I need to worry about exceeding my evaporation rate. At that point I will supplement the kalk with 2-part as needed.

For now, I would doubt you will need to add anything any time soon. Even with 20ish softies/LPS and around 30 sps frags I only drop 0.1 dkh per day without dosing. I think most of that goes to coralline growth!

 

[Jeremy Luke]

Personally, I like 2 part on dosers. But as Brew12 said, I bet it would be a long time from now before you need to do any dosing. My current 126g tank was started about 11 months ago. Corals first went in about 9 months ago. I've got 20+ sps pieces that were small frags when they went in. I would now consider most just large frags and a couple of the first pieces added are small colonies. I have dosers attached to my computer and ready to go.. but I'm still not dosing. Just doing 25 gallon water changes every two weeks.

 

[Steve1500]

Thanks Brew. To verify, you just use(d) a doser with Kalk, right? I did not know you can use a doser for kalk...thought only 2 part.

Being cautious here, but once my LPS (no SPS) are consuming alk/calc, would it hurt or help to dose whether it be kalk or 2 part?

 

[Steve1500]

Personally, I like 2 part on dosers. But as Brew12 said, I bet it would be a long time from now before you need to do any dosing. My current 126g tank was started about 11 months ago. Corals first went in about 9 months ago. I've got 20+ sps pieces that were small frags when they went in. I would now consider most just large frags and a couple of the first pieces added are small colonies. I have dosers attached to my computer and ready to go.. but I'm still not dosing. Just doing 25 gallon water changes every two weeks.

Thanks Jeremy...that gives me a timeline ball park to work from. I plan on doing 20-25% WC every 10-14 days so also.

 

[Js.Aqua.Project]

I see above that the salt you are using has a Ca that mixes to 390ppm at 1.026.

My suggestion would be rather than dosing, switch to a salt that mixes to the parameters you would like to keep.

35ppt = ~1.026 Prices based off of BRS.
Red Sea Salt (35ppt): dKH 7.5-8.5 Ca 415 – 445 Mg 1240-1320 ($0.42/gal)
Red Sea Coral Pro (35ppt): dKH 11-12 Ca 435 – 465 Mg 1310-1390 ($0.42/gal)
AquaForest Reef Salt(33ppt): dKH 7.4-8.2 Ca 410-440 Mg 1300-1380 ($0.36/gal)
AquaForest Sea Salt (30ppt): dKH 8.0-9.0 Ca 360-400 Mg 1200-1300 ($0.24/gal)
Reef Crystals (35ppt): dKH Ca 455 Mg 1345 ($0.32/gal)

*note the lower recommended salinity of the AF products

I personally have found this to be a cheaper method (no need to buy dosing supplements or dosing system) and less daily maintenance (if dosing by hand).

 

[Brew12]

Thanks Brew. To verify, you just use(d) a doser with Kalk, right? I did not know you can use a doser for kalk...thought only 2 part.

Being cautious here, but once my LPS (no SPS) are consuming alk/calc, would it hurt or help to dose whether it be kalk or 2 part?

You will hurt things if you dose before you have enough demand in the tank. Wait until you can measure a defined drop in Alk/Calc between water changes.

Correct. I use a doser with Kalk. Saturated Kalkwasser works out to 2tsp/gallon so that is how I have mixed mine. Using it in an ATO is fine, but I found the dosing rate to be inconsistent. It will also damage the ATO pump after awhile. This is my current setup.

My Profilux will even let me know when I need to refill the container by calculating the amount I told it I started with and how much it calculates that it added.

 

[Brew12]

I see above that the salt you are using has a Ca that mixes to 390ppm at 1.026.

My suggestion would be rather than dosing, switch to a salt that mixes to the parameters you would like to keep.

35ppt = ~1.026 Prices based off of BRS.
Red Sea Salt (35ppt): dKH 7.5-8.5 Ca 415 – 445 Mg 1240-1320 ($0.42/gal)
Red Sea Coral Pro (35ppt): dKH 11-12 Ca 435 – 465 Mg 1310-1390 ($0.42/gal)
AquaForest Reef Salt(33ppt): dKH 7.4-8.2 Ca 410-440 Mg 1300-1380 ($0.36/gal)
AquaForest Sea Salt (30ppt): dKH 8.0-9.0 Ca 360-400 Mg 1200-1300 ($0.24/gal)
Reef Crystals (35ppt): dKH Ca 455 Mg 1345 ($0.32/gal)

*note the lower recommended salinity of the AF products

I personally have found this to be a cheaper method (no need to buy dosing supplements or dosing system) and less daily maintenance (if dosing by hand).

Great advice, although dosing will still be required eventually regardless of the salt used.

This is the reason I went from Reef Crystals to Red Sea Salt (blue bucket, not Pro). I shoot for 430ppm Ca and an alk of 8dKH.

 

[Js.Aqua.Project]

Great advice, although dosing will still be required eventually regardless of the salt used.

This is the reason I went from Reef Crystals to Red Sea Salt (blue bucket, not Pro). I shoot for 430ppm Ca and an alk of 8dKH.

I agree, but it'd be nice to put it off as long as possible. I personally use the Coral Pro and follow Red Sea's Mixed Reef Recipe which calls for 35ppt dKH 11.5 Ca 450 Mg 1350. I have found that with 20% weekly water changes I am not having to do any significant dosing in a moderately stocked Soft Coral/LPS tank.

Side note: @Brew12 next time I am in Hartselle visiting my wife's family I may just hit you up.

 

[Jeremy Luke]

The reason I have used Red Sea Blue Bucket and currently use Fritz RPM Salt is because I still have low consumption. I keep my nutrients pretty low and my light intensity is pretty high so I need to keep my Alk level fairly low.

 

[Brew12]

Side note: @Brew12 next time I am in Hartselle visiting my wife's family I may just hit you up.

I'm right up the street, just let me know!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I personally have found this to be a cheaper method (no need to buy dosing supplements or dosing system) and less daily maintenance (if dosing by hand).

Is it really a cheaper method? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not by a very long shot.

unless your consumption of alk and calcium is really really small and a normal water change maintains it, then water changes are crazy expensive to maintain alk and calcium.

It is terribly wasteful to boost alk and calcium by water change, unless you already know for other reasons you want to do changes that large, and to maintain alk, it can take quite a lot.

Let's do some math for fun, and see. Let's pick an expensive two part so it doesn't only apply to DIY. So ESV B-ionic

let's assume a 100 gallon tank that consumes alk and calcium at the balanced rate of 1 dKH per day.

B-ionic.

8 gallon package at BRS costs $90.

It has 4 gallons of each component. Let's just look at alkalinity.

4 gallons will allow you to boost that 100 gallons by 1 dKH per day for 339 days.

Red Sea Coral Pro Salt mix

Using red Sea Coral Pro for water changes. You said pick a mix that has parameters that match the tank. That cannot work out to maintain against depletion. let's say your alk is 4 dKH below the new salt water. That gives you a 4 dKH boost for the amount of water changed. If you do a 25% water change, that will boost the tank overall by 1 dKH.

If you really wanted to add 1 dKH per day via water change, you'd need to change 25 percent every day. EVERY DAY! How much would that cost over the same 339 days that you could dose the B-ionic? Crazy high. 8,475 gallons. How much does that cost? 175 gallons of that mix at BRS costs $73, so it would cost $3,535.

So B-ionic costs WAY WAY less than doing water changes to maintain parameters.

Let's take the most extreme case possible. You keep your tank at 7 dKH and the Red Sea Coral Pro comes in at 13 dKH (6 dKH above the tank water). So to add 1 dKH per day, you need a 17% daily change. Still is way more expensive than B-ionic.

Super low demand situation

So let's back way off and say you only need 1 dKH per week (0.14 dKH per day).

The B-ionic will last for 339 weeks at $90

The Red Sea Coral Pro will require a once a week change of 25%. Over 339 weeks that still costs the incredible $3,535.

The only way that becomes cost effective is if you were going to do that much water change anyway.

 

[Js.Aqua.Project]

Is it really a cheaper method? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not by a very long shot.

unless your consumption of alk and calcium is really really small and a normal water change maintains it, then water changes are crazy expensive to maintain alk and calcium.

It is terribly wasteful to boost alk and calcium by water change, unless you already know for other reasons you want to do changes that large, and to maintain alk, it can take quite a lot.

Let's do some math for fun, and see. Let's pick an expensive two part so it doesn't only apply to DIY. So ESV B-ionic

let's assume a 100 gallon tank that consumes alk and calcium at the balanced rate of 1 dKH per day.

B-ionic.

8 gallon package at BRS costs $90.

It has 4 gallons of each component. Let's just look at alkalinity.

4 gallons will allow you to boost that 100 gallons by 1 dKH per day for 339 days.

Red Sea Coral Pro Salt mix

Using red Sea Coral Pro for water changes. You said pick a mix that has parameters that match the tank. That cannot work out to maintain against depletion. let's say your alk is 4 dKH below the new salt water. That gives you a 4 dKH boost for the amount of water changed. If you do a 25% water change, that will boost the tank overall by 1 dKH.

If you really wanted to add 1 dKH per day via water change, you'd need to change 25 percent every day. EVERY DAY! How much would that cost over the same 339 days that you could dose the B-ionic? Crazy high. 8,475 gallons. How much does that cost? 175 gallons of that mix at BRS costs $73, so it would cost $3,535.

So B-ionic costs WAY WAY less than doing water changes to maintain parameters.

Let's take the most extreme case possible. You keep your tank at 7 dKH and the Red Sea Coral Pro comes in at 13 dKH (6 dKH above the tank water). So to add 1 dKH per day, you need a 17% daily change. Still is way more expensive than B-ionic.

Super low demand situation

So let's back way off and say you only need 1 dKH per week (0.14 dKH per day).

The B-ionic will last for 339 weeks at $90

The Red Sea Coral Pro will require a once a week change of 25%. Over 339 weeks that still costs the incredible $3,535.

The only way that becomes cost effective is if you were going to do that much water change anyway.

Not back tracking but I went back to my message and it appears I misspoke.

I intended to say start with a salt that matches your parameters. So if you want a daily dKH of 11.5 don't start with a salt that mixes at 7.

I am fortunate enough to have a ridicously low dKH uptake, I start my week after w/c at 11.4-11.5 and if I don't dose throughout the week it will end up around 11-11.2. (60 gallon mixed reef)

Needless to say, those are some ridiculous numbers and I apparently need to rethink my life choices.