Dosing Lanthanum Chloride - A Personal Experience

[Sisterlimonpot]

I am a success story. It just so happened the the OP of this thread is the one that turned me onto the seaklear lanthanum.

I mix 6ml to 1 gallon and dose continually at 0.35ml/min into a filter sock.

That keeps my phosphates between 0.3-0.5.

Another local that did the exact same thing, killed just about every fish in his tank.

 

[BZOFIQ]

the by product if not removed by the filter socks hits the gills and you will see the issue when it hits.. all of a sudden you will see fish swimming like crazy on the surface.. no coming back.. lost a pair of personifiers, barb anthias and more... GRO in my book will not cause a crazy drop or kill fish.. just my 1000 dollars worth LOL

Curious how you dose it.

Where did you dose it?

What socks did you use?

 

[Subarcticreef]

Lanthanum is very poorly absorbed by people , but my company showed that the little that is absorbed can get into bone. That may or may not be any concern or be related to toxic effects in reef tanks, but it does appear that a small but important fraction of users of lanthanum chloride in reef tanks see fish toxicity, tangs mostly.

My guess is that the people that have had issues with lanthanum have either dosed it too aggressively or used preparations intended for pool use. I guess that pool preparations contain lanthanum of inferior purity and may therefore contain impurities such as unwanted metals or other contaminants.

 

[Subarcticreef]

The big risk with lanthanum as I see it is that by using it you can drop phosphate to literally zero within seconds. Something that is impossible with absorbers.
There is also a possibility that hobbyists have problems calculating the correct dose. I found a calculator for various lanthanum preparations on internet that seems kosher. Could be of help.

http://larryl.emailplus.org.user.fm/fish/dosing-instructions-phosphate-removers.html

 

[BZOFIQ]

The big risk with lanthanum as I see it is that by using it you can drop phosphate to literally zero within seconds. Something that is impossible with absorbers.
There is also a possibility that hobbyists have problems calculating the correct dose. I found a calculator for various lanthanum preparations on internet that seems kosher. Could be of help.

http://larryl.emailplus.org.user.fm/fish/dosing-instructions-phosphate-removers.html

Good link, Notice that the person who designed it also gives you calcs for half dose - smart!

Long ago Marc (Melev's Reef) showed off using one of the products where he just dumps it in the tank. A lot of people have been doing exactly that with a sub-section of those losing some or all of fish. Dumping the solution into the tank is completely WRONG.

I believe the best method is to dilute the product in larger quantity of water and drip it slowly over 12-24 hours straight into the overflow. In the sump, install 5 or 1 micron sock to catch what precipitates. A one micron sock will be clogged by the time you finish dripping the stuff in and earlier if you have a lot of particulates in you water.

Re-test your water after 6-12 hours to see how much of a drop you've achieved and either stop dosing immediately or carry on. Starting with 1/4 or half-dose is recommended to see how your tank responds.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My guess is that the people that have had issues with lanthanum have either dosed it too aggressively or used preparations intended for pool use. I guess that pool preparations contain lanthanum of inferior purity and may therefore contain impurities such as unwanted metals or other contaminants.

But that guess is not the explanation, as folks dosing quality hobby brands into filter socks at less than the recommended dose with significant phosphate remaining have lost fish.

 

[ZoWhat]

But that guess is not the explanation, as folks dosing quality hobby brands into filter socks at less than the recommended dose with significant phosphate remaining have lost fish.

Then don't use LaCl3..... Do weekly water changes..... and find the source of the PO4 that's probably in your fish food

If Plan A isn't working for you, then do Plan B

My Plan A of dosing 30 droplets of Blue Life Phos Rx in a 200g total water system EVERY Monday .... that has worked for me for 3+ years


.

 

[Garf]

Doesn't look like I've commented about sand bed disturbance on this thread, until now. I wash all my "sandbed" weekly and remotely in lanthanum chloride. It maintains phosphate in my little tank. So the rubbish that gets produced does not get in the tank, and it's a lot. I certainly wouldn't want to tip it back in the tank to experiment. Picture of "sandbed" regenerating, and another after a gentle agitation of the sand. Now extrapolate this effect to "in tank" usage, where a tanks bed could gather this stuff for months or years, add a sandbed disturbance? No thank you very much.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Doesn't look like I've commented about sand bed disturbance on this thread, until now. I wash all my "sandbed" weekly and remotely in lanthanum chloride. It maintains phosphate in my little tank. So the rubbish that gets produced does not get in the tank, and it's a lot. I certainly wouldn't want to tip it back in the tank to experiment. Picture of "sandbed" regenerating, and another after a gentle agitation of the sand. Now extrapolate this effect to "in tank" usage, where a tanks bed could gather this stuff for months or years, add a sandbed disturbance? No thank you very much.

This is why I said a million times to slooooowly drip into overflow and catch with micron sock.

DO NOT DUMP INTO THE TANK!

 

[Subarcticreef]

But that guess is not the explanation, as folks dosing quality hobby brands into filter socks at less than the recommended dose with significant phosphate remaining have lost fish.

Right. At the same time has yours truly been dumping Elimi phos into the overflow without any observable consequences. Lanthanumphosphate is essentially insoluble under these conditions and -as I see it- could only impact the animals through some mechanic effect. Plugging gills or something else. Perhaps there are genetic strains of tangs that are more sensitive than others?

Also, I never reduce phosphate with more than 0.1 per day.

In my younger days I used lanthanum while at the same time I had a reactor w gfo going. That generated some strange measurements. I guess that lanthanum strips bound phosphate from the gfo.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Then don't use LaCl3..... Do weekly water changes..... and find the source of the PO4 that's probably in your fish food

If Plan A isn't working for you, then do Plan B

My Plan A of dosing 30 droplets of Blue Life Phos Rx in a 200g total water system EVERY Monday .... that has worked for me for 3+ years


.

I don’t have a phosphate problem. I have a problem with your assertions about what the problem is with lanthanum dosing when some folk’s experiences contradict your assertions.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Right. At the same time has yours truly been dumping Elimi phos into the overflow without any observable consequences. Lanthanumphosphate is essentially insoluble under these conditions and -as I see it- could only impact the animals through some mechanic effect. Plugging gills or something else. Perhaps there are genetic strains of tangs that are more sensitive than others?

Also, I never reduce phosphate with more than 0.1 per day.

In my younger days I used lanthanum while at the same time I had a reactor w gfo going. That generated some strange measurements. I guess that lanthanum strips bound phosphate from the gfo.

I do not think your experience or anyone else’s clinches what may be the problem, which could include particles of lanthanum phosphate or lanthanum carbonate, soluble lanthanum, or some toxic impurity.

 

[Subarcticreef]

I do not think your experience or anyone else’s clinches what may be the problem, which could include particles of lanthanum phosphate or lanthanum carbonate, soluble lanthanum, or some toxic impurity.

OR the fact that most people start using lanthanum when something bad has happened leading to sky high phosphate causing people to freak out.
It may not be the lanthanum itself that harms the fish (tangs).


Found an interesting paper on Lanthanumphosphate. The particles formed seem to be quite a lot smaller than 5 microns.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264127519304964

 

[areefer01]

OR the fact that most people start using lanthanum when something bad has happened leading to sky high phosphate causing people to freak out.
It may not be the lanthanum itself that harms the fish (tangs).


Found an interesting paper on Lanthanumphosphate. The particles formed seem to be quite a lot smaller than 5 microns.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264127519304964

Are you suggesting that reported fish loss is due to the high phosphate? What is considered high phosphates to you?

 

[Subarcticreef]

Are you suggesting that reported fish loss is due to the high phosphate? What is considered high phosphates to you?

Nope. But rather what caused the high phosphate

 

[areefer01]

Nope. But rather what caused the high phosphate

10 to 15 years ago we never cared much about phosphate. Suddenly a test kit became available and everyone is concerned about it. Even dosing it. My display is running 2.2 ppm of it. It is what it is and none of the animals seem to care.

Thanks for the clarity - as I read your post I interpreted that the loss of fish may be due to it.

 

[Subarcticreef]

10 to 15 years ago we never cared much about phosphate. Suddenly a test kit became available and everyone is concerned about it. Even dosing it. My display is running 2.2 ppm of it. It is what it is and none of the animals seem to care.

Thanks for the clarity - as I read your post I interpreted that the loss of fish may be due to it.

I think you’re right. Just chasing numbers can be meaningless. Also, an absolute number doesn’t say anything about how much of the compound is going through the system.

A sudden rise in phosphate can often be caused by something has died.

 

[Borat]

From reading the enirety of this thread i learnt a lot about it, specifically that it is not as "cheap" as it seems:
- buying 10 micron sock and wasing it regularly would be a pita for me
- fiddling with dosing quantities
- always having some risk to tangs health

I guess if one does not have a chronic phosphates problem (such as due to having 42 tangs in a 42 gallons of water) using GFO is a lot less demanding and in some way cheap option. i have to periodically control phosphates (fuge had to be restarted due to bryopsis treatment) - but i need to take out at most 0.1 ppm each week. One scoop of ROWA achieves it and the speed of absorbtion can be controlled by varying the flow (i run a small pump that drains into a filter sock with rowa media), no maintenance other than removing rowa from filter sock, rinsing it and adding more media once a week.

So whilst i am a big fan of chemical experemints - this one is not for me..

 

[Subarcticreef]

Also, I doubt that a 3 micron sock can remove the lanthanumphosphate. The particles are probably much smaller.

 

[SamMule]

This is an interesting topic. Occasionally, I dose Phosphate-e into my back chamber before filtration. 3-5ml slowly dripped in with a syringe by hand. (66g tank capacity) Have never seen any adverse effects on the tank. Sometimes there is a little cloudiness that shows up in the display, but the fish don't seem to care at all. I have also never had any Lanthanum show up on an ICP after treatment either. Perhaps, when it binds to the phosphate, it becomes inert?
Conversely, every time I've tried to use GFO (even at less than half of the recommend amount) I have incurred multiple acropora losses. My system runs high nutrients. Phisphate is typically in the .2-.4 range. Nitrates hang around 12-25.


There has to be a reason why some people have issues with this and others do not.