Dr. Tim's Ammonia Chloride Dosing Instructions are Wrong.

[LRT]

Wife's going to think I've totally lost my mind when I bust out digital scale and start weighing drops and ml's tonight

 

[sixty_reefer]

I agree that according to the test kits and syringes available to us the readings are high, but I must disagree with the last part that dr. Tim intend to keep the tank at 2ppm that’s actually unknown to us the concentration intended by his method. All that I’m aware is:

1. Don’t go above 5ppm
2. Don’t add ammonia if your tank still reads above 2ppm on day 3 and day 6.

everything else might be on purpose as 4 drops is still under the 5ppm mark using hobby test kits. I guess all i’m saying is there must be someone out there with a nice clean white lab coat that made a bit of research before sending this to store :)

 

[sixty_reefer]

@Coxey81 @sixty_reefer

It does make one wonder why all test kits/reagents, etc - do not use 'volume' as compared to drops. My guess is that api tests would be more 'accurate' - if they used a small syringe - as compared to 'drops'. And perhaps dr. Tims etc etc as well?

I think the difference between a drop and a syringe wouldn’t matter much in a hobby test kit as they there just as a reference and convenience to use. Also if someone is quite experienced using the drops you can get a good accurate drop every time :)

 

[mdb_talon]

I agree that according to the test kits and syringes available to us the readings are high, but I must disagree with the last part that dr. Tim intend to keep the tank at 2ppm that’s actually unknown to us the concentration intended by his method. All that I’m aware is:

1. Don’t go above 5ppm
2. Don’t add ammonia if your tank still reads above 2ppm on day 3 and day 6.

everything else might be on purpose as 4 drops is still under the 5ppm mark using hobby test kits. I guess all i’m saying is there must be someone out there with a nice clean white lab coat that made a bit of research before sending this to store :)

The instructions are pretty clear that 4 drops(per gallon) are supposed to give you 2ppm ammonia. lets not forget that the guys in the white lab coats only have so much influence. With any product like this absolute precision has to be balanced with making a product that is at a cost people will buy it. If the guys in the white coats suggest a $40 dropper the guys in suits are going to replace it with a 40 cent dropper.

I think the difference between a drop and a syringe wouldn’t matter much in a hobby test kit as they there just as a reference and convenience to use. Also if someone is quite experienced using the drops you can get a good accurate drop every time :)

Does not seem they had issues with getting a fairly consistent drop size... the issue being that the drop size did not match what is needed based off the instructions.

 

[Coxey81]

@Coxey81 @sixty_reefer

It does make one wonder why all test kits/reagents, etc - do not use 'volume' as compared to drops. My guess is that api tests would be more 'accurate' - if they used a small syringe - as compared to 'drops'. And perhaps dr. Tims etc etc as well?

I think drops are probably fine in regards to most things we are measuring. Even with Dr. Tim's the drop size was pretty consistent. The problem is they arent the size they claim. If they claimed they were .066ml there would be no issue except the solution percentage.

Also. Even if the percentage was right and the drop size was right, you would be dosing .8ml at 4% in 4 gallons in my case. But the ammonia calculator will still tell you that's higher than 2ppm. It would 2.2ppm.

It's like they erred on the side of caution in three regards to make sure there was enough ammonia to ensure enough bacteria... and it all adds up to a gross overdose.

 

[MnFish1]

I agree that according to the test kits and syringes available to us the readings are high, but I must disagree with the last part that dr. Tim intend to keep the tank at 2ppm that’s actually unknown to us the concentration intended by his method. All that I’m aware is:

1. Don’t go above 5ppm
2. Don’t add ammonia if your tank still reads above 2ppm on day 3 and day 6.

everything else might be on purpose as 4 drops is still under the 5ppm mark using hobby test kits. I guess all i’m saying is there must be someone out there with a nice clean white lab coat that made a bit of research before sending this to store :)

Totally true!!!!!

 

[sixty_reefer]

The instructions are pretty clear that 4 drops(per gallon) are supposed to give you 2ppm ammonia. lets not forget that the guys in the white lab coats only have so much influence. With any product like this absolute precision has to be balanced with making a product that is at a cost people will buy it. If the guys in the white coats suggest a $40 dropper the guys in suits are going to replace it with a 40 cent dropper.


Does not seem they had issues with getting a fairly consistent drop size... the issue being that the drop size did not match what is needed based off the instructions.

Quoting dr Tim pdf on cycling tanks using their product.

“Do not keep adding ammonia until you get a reading of 2ppm”

I would assume that they expecting a higher reading of ammonia, for them to instruct the person using they’re product to be aware that after 3 days you still could have a reading of 2ppm in the tank. :)

 

[MnFish1]

I think drops are probably fine in regards to most things we are measuring. Even with Dr. Tim's the drop size was pretty consistent. The problem is they arent the size they claim. If they claimed they were .066ml there would be no issue except the solution percentage.

Also. Even if the percentage was right and the drop size was right, you would be dosing .8ml at 4% in 4 gallons in my case. But the ammonia calculator will still tell you that's higher than 2ppm. It would 2.2ppm.

It's like they erred on the side of caution in three regards to make sure there was enough ammonia to ensure enough bacteria... and it all adds up to a gross overdose.

Lets face it - a lot of the controversy is people not following the directions of the product they are using

 

[MnFish1]

Quoting dr Tim pdf on cycling tanks using their product.

“Do not keep adding ammonia until you get a reading of 2ppm”

I would assume that they expecting a higher reading of ammonia, for them to instruct the person using they’re product to be aware that after 3 days you still could have a reading of 2ppm in the tank.

This to me (dense today - does not make sense -from. the dr. Tim perspective

 

[sixty_reefer]

This to me (dense today - does not make sense -from. the dr. Tim perspective

I think they saying that is supposed to have a high reading and on day 3 before adding more ammonia they asking for people not to add ammonia if the reading is 2ppm or above. This will be due to the fact that if you add 4 drops on top of 2ppm it would take the new reading around 6ppm ish that is greater than 5ppm they’re maximum ppm to not stall the cycle.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Quick Guide to Fishless Cycling | DrTim's Aquatics

Quick Guide to Fishless Cycling with One & Only There are many opinions about how to fishless cycle your aquarium. But they normally just confuse readers and generate more questions than answers. Below is an article explaining the process and a couple of ways to fishless cycle, which we...

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I believe that this are one of the best instructions online even though they say 4 drops should be 2ppm they also say that 4 drops can read higher than 2 ppm so this may be known to them, also my mistake they say on this instructions not to add ammonia if the until you read 1ppm nevertheless if our test kits are correct this would take it to 5.8 probably what can be causing issues to some people using the product.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

I used 4 drops and my test kit (API) went to the max and I have a feeling it was much higher. Ridiculous honestly!

 

[taricha]

Both can be well out of reach for hobbyists, with a 20 uL pipette costing hundreds of dollars and a high end balance costing much more.

Stuff like these adjustable pipettes from Four Es are nice, like $30, and give agreement with expected mass of dispensed distilled water.
They don't reach near the level of precision of what you are describing, but are way better than having to rely on "drops"

 

[MnFish1]

Stuff like these adjustable pipettes from Four Es are nice, like $30, and give agreement with expected mass of dispensed distilled water.
They don't reach near the level of precision of what you are describing, but are way better than having to rely on "drops"

If I was going to cycle a tank - or whatever - and wanted 'close' (which is probably as good as it gets) - I would add amounts from a syringe - until it measured 2 ppm on the test. But - those look nice @taricha

 

[Chrisv.]

Sounds like it's time for a rip clean!

 

[taricha]

If I was going to cycle a tank - or whatever - and wanted 'close' (which is probably as good as it gets) - I would add amounts from a syringe

Me too, if I didn't have the adjustable pipettes.

 

[Dan_P]

I think drops are probably fine in regards to most things we are measuring. Even with Dr. Tim's the drop size was pretty consistent. The problem is they arent the size they claim. If they claimed they were .066ml there would be no issue except the solution percentage.

Also. Even if the percentage was right and the drop size was right, you would be dosing .8ml at 4% in 4 gallons in my case. But the ammonia calculator will still tell you that's higher than 2ppm. It would 2.2ppm.

It's like they erred on the side of caution in three regards to make sure there was enough ammonia to ensure enough bacteria... and it all adds up to a gross overdose.

I am working on an alternative approach.

If all we are doing is increasing the number of bacteria with all these ammonia additions, then the new instant cycle approach is to add a few times more the recommended amount of nitrifying bacteria. For example, if one bottle is recommended for 100 gallons, add 2-5 bottles and then add fish.

 

[Coxey81]

I am working on an alternative approach.

If all we are doing is increasing the number of bacteria with all these ammonia additions, then the new instant cycle approach is to add a few times more the recommended amount of nitrifying bacteria. For example, if one bottle is recommended for 100 gallons, add 2-5 bottles and then add fish.

Would probably work. Be a little more pricey though.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I am working on an alternative approach.

If all we are doing is increasing the number of bacteria with all these ammonia additions, then the new instant cycle approach is to add a few times more the recommended amount of nitrifying bacteria. For example, if one bottle is recommended for 100 gallons, add 2-5 bottles and then add fish.

Curious to see where that would take you, wouldn’t anything above 5ppm cause a stall? And for bacteria explosion wouldn’t glucose be a more efficient way?

 

[Coxey81]

Curious to see where that would take you, wouldn’t anything above 5ppm cause a stall? And for bacteria explosion wouldn’t glucose be a more efficient way?

I think he means add 5 bottles of bacteria. Instead of 1. At least that's how I took it.