electrical question Need a little help

[OutLawX77]

#reefsquad Need a little help plz

Hello reefsqud
Ok this is going to be an electrical question about the house's outlet for where my tank is going to be placed.
I live in Broward County Fl. U S A (Don't forget to Vote)
I have an 120v outlet for where I will be going to place the tank. The house is pretty old, built in the early 1960's.
This house has NO GROUNDS in the wall outlet I will be using.
I know that the old conduit can and will act as a ground, but this conduit has either broke or separated giving me No Grounding at my tank. Which leads to my water becoming energized!
I have used other plugs that I grounded by the conduit and my tank water Does Not Energized even on an extension cord.
So My Question is more for an electrician!
My Question Is
Can I Ground the grounding screw, of the outlet of the house's outlet, to the actual Ground by drilling and installing say a small metal rod directly into the ground say 12-18 inches deep.
And then attach the ground wire from the outlet to this rod. (Really would like to get rid of the extension cord)

No I can not run new wiring from the ele box to the outlet because the crawl space is only 18-24 inches deep and or high and at least 40 ft long of a run and filled with AC duct work.
And my wife would blow a head gasket .
If I could I would
Thank you #reefsquad

 

[Peace River]

@Brew12

 

[redfishbluefish]

You need to restore the ground to that outlet.

In addition, if the conduit (EMT) is broken or separated, that needs to be addressed to keep those nasty Florida rats from chewing through the exposed wires.

You need to crawl under the house or hire an electrician willing to do this. Your other potential option is to run new EMT on the outside of the house.

Get it fixed!

And in regard to installing a grounding rod, I'm not aware of local/Florida code, but here in NJ we put in ten foot rods (not sure of National code).

 

[dankaqua]

I would say you definably can create a ground (proper wire, proper connection, etc) but I'm more worried about your tank being "energized". How are you detecting that? Sounds to me like the neutral wire is not correctly connected. I've heard about old electrical systems with no grounds to outlets, but sounds like you have a more troubling issue. You should definitely get things sorted out by having an electrician come take a look (and test your system).

 

[Brew12]

Unfortunately, you cannot just drive a small rod into the ground and call it good. To do it properly, you need to know the conductivity of the soil around your house. Sandy soil often has a high resistance so it could take up to 3 x 10ft copper ground rods connected as a delta to get a proper ground.

I don't have my code book, and I cannot remember if EMT can be used as a ground conductor. I know it can be used as an equipment ground conductor, but that isn't what you are trying to do and there is a significant difference from a safety perspective.

@Paul B is a very experience electrician, maybe he can come up with some advice.

 

[OutLawX77]

I would say you definably can create a ground (proper wire, proper connection, etc) but I'm more worried about your tank being "energized". How are you detecting that? Sounds to me like the neutral wire is not correctly connected. I've heard about old electrical systems with no grounds to outlets, but sounds like you have a more troubling issue. You should definitely get things sorted out by having an electrician come take a look (and test your system).

Yes I did, have an electrician come out to look over this problem.
He informed me that a ground would fix this issue. But to run a ground back to the box would cost me around 2500 I can't spend this amount of money for that. Just because I have A reef tank doesn't mean I'm rich.
It's not me house but I have lived here for 15ys. or so. can't beat the rent.(long story make ya jar drop lol) any ho

The discovery
My son was feeding the fish bear foot, some water dripped to the floor he stepped on the water and was shocked when he went to add some more food.
So I started to unplug 1 piece of equipment retesting until I found the fault.
At first I thought it was the chiller sent it back got a new 1( under Warranty)
Equipment Check all good no problems reinstalled the chiller 3 week turnaround time
Added the chiller back, GOT Shocked Again No chiller No shock Hmmmmmm
killed all equipment. Tested the chiller on the plug no Shock. Really hmmm So the chiller is good, All equipement good. added the equipment back 1 piece at a time. Added the chiller got shocked, put chiller on a different plug that was grounded using an extension cord. NO shock, added all equipement back using the extension cord from the plug. That was grounded Hay NO energized tank.;Happy
So I replaced the plug 2x but without a ground I got shocked.
So I grounded the plug ground to the conduit because conduit was/is the ground for these older homes.
tested the ground no ground what the heck
Now I have been trying to figure out how to correct this issue for the past 8 months without spending a fortune.
I believe the amperage or wattage being drawn to run the system is back feeding/bleeding into the tank as this would be the path of least resident. Instead of it being grounded preventing this from happening.

 

[Brew12]

Yes I did, have an electrician come out to look over this problem.
He informed me that a ground would fix this issue. But to run a ground back to the box would cost me around 2500 I can't spend this amount of money for that. Just because I have A reef tank doesn't mean I'm rich.
It's not me house but I have lived here for 15ys. or so. can't beat the rent.(long story make ya jar drop lol) any ho

The discovery
My son was feeding the fish bear foot, some water dripped to the floor he stepped on the water and was shocked when he went to add some more food.
So I started to unplug 1 piece of equipment retesting until I found the fault.
At first I thought it was the chiller sent it back got a new 1( under Warranty)
Equipment Check all good no problems reinstalled the chiller 3 week turnaround time
Added the chiller back, GOT Shocked Again No chiller No shock Hmmmmmm
killed all equipment. Tested the chiller on the plug no Shock. Really hmmm So the chiller is good, All equipement good. added the equipment back 1 piece at a time. Added the chiller got shocked, put chiller on a different plug that was grounded using an extension cord. NO shock, added all equipement back using the extension cord from the plug. That was grounded Hay NO energized tank.;Happy
So I replaced the plug 2x but without a ground I got shocked.
So I grounded the plug ground to the conduit because conduit was/is the ground for these older homes.
tested the ground no ground what the heck
Now I have been trying to figure out how to correct this issue for the past 8 months without spending a fortune.
I believe the amperage or wattage being drawn to run the system is back feeding/bleeding into the tank as this would be the path of least resident. Instead of it being grounded preventing this from happening.

While I am a big fan of a ground probe with a GFCI outlet you can still use only the GFCI outlet. It may not keep the voltage out of your tank, but it will keep you safe. A GFCI does not need a ground to work.

 

[OutLawX77]

Unfortunately, you cannot just drive a small rod into the ground and call it good. To do it properly, you need to know the conductivity of the soil around your house. Sandy soil often has a high resistance so it could take up to 3 x 10ft copper ground rods connected as a delta to get a proper ground.

I don't have my code book, and I cannot remember if EMT can be used as a ground conductor. I know it can be used as an equipment ground conductor, but that isn't what you are trying to do and there is a significant difference from a safety perspective.

@Paul B is a very experience electrician, maybe he can come up with some advice.

As far as codes go no you can't use the conduit for grounding. But it is a conductor of a grounding circuit but you can't use it,
This house was built long before codes were known to exist here in S, Fl.
And that's how it was done back in the early days
Our power company FP&L has rods tied into the conduit piping coming in to the house visa main trunk and a good size ground strap. This is what gave me this idea in the first place
nothing like being stuck

 

[dankaqua]

No I can not run new wiring from the ele box to the outlet because the crawl space is only 18-24 inches deep and or high and at least 40 ft long of a run and filled with AC duct work.

Are you able to run (push) a pvc pipe through that crawlspace to your fishroom? If so, you could establish a hard tunnel from to your utility panel which would make pulling wire a lot easier.

I'd also recommend a "non-contact voltage tester" for checking any stray electricity... it's so sensitive that it can pickup static electricity if you rub it on your shirt.
Non-Contact Voltage Tester - Home Depot

 

[alton]

One option would be to get rid of all 120v equipment and go with low voltage power heads and return pump. Mount the power supply's away from the tank. Definitely replace regular receptacle with GFCI and put the little sticker on it it that states no grounding provided. Definitely call another electrical contractor to see what it would cost to run a new three wire circuit from the panel board.

 

[Phildago]

Use a ground fault protected power strip. It's a simple solution in case anything goes wrong.

You can also create a ground as you mentioned, but the most important thing is to have a way to cut power to the tank, which can be accomplished with the power strip.

 

[OutLawX77]

Will thank you all for the advise
I guess that I will have to run romex through my ceiling at some point
but until then, I'll Just use the extension cord 3 plug method to fix this. Say like a 12 or 10 gage to lower the resistance

 

[theMeat]

Maybe something simple and easily accessible.
Try this
Would find what outlets are in line/feeding that tank outlet going all the way back to breaker. Inside each outlet, switch, ceiling box, whatever, one at a time check that armored cable is making contact and secured to the metal box, in and out of each box. This would be my first stab at fixing this. If you find a loose cable pull it up into box a bit and secure it. Or maybe you’ll find someone did sumthin stupid, like use a plastic box. Armored cable can get damaged and bent pretty bad before the armor is severed all the way to loose ground. These are the only 2 things I can think that would make you lose ground. Unless there’s a junction box buried in the wall , ceiling that you can’t see and get to.

 

[OutLawX77]

One option would be to get rid of all 120v equipment and go with low voltage power heads and return pump. Mount the power supply's away from the tank. Definitely replace regular receptacle with GFCI and put the little sticker on it it that states no grounding provided. Definitely call another electrical contractor to see what it would cost to run a new three wire circuit from the panel board.

Yes all my equipment is low voltage. DC power heads and pump with LED lights Pro. Skim. is an 8 watt and the chiller pump is a 20 watt. The only thing that is 120v is the chiller.

 

[OutLawX77]

Maybe something simple and easily accessible.
Try this
Would find what outlets are in line/feeding that tank outlet going all the way back to breaker. Inside each outlet, switch, ceiling box, whatever, one at a time check that armored cable is making contact and secured to the metal box, in and out of each box. This would be my first stab at fixing this. If you find a loose cable pull it up into box a bit and secure it. Or maybe you’ll find someone did sumthin stupid, like use a plastic box. Armored cable can get damaged and bent pretty bad before the armor is severed all the way to loose ground. These are the only 2 things I can think that would make you lose ground. Unless there’s a junction box buried in the wall , ceiling that you can’t see and get to.

if I could I would. Maybe in the future this will become an option no attic space to speak of.

 

[Salt & Peper]

I'm no electrician so this might be crazy. If you have grounded outlets in the room or close just splice of the grounded outlet run the wire under the the trim. Then wire one plug on the outlet for a power strip. It's like using an extension cord but hidden.