Experimental testing of Brightwell Boost pH +

[rtparty]

If this product doesn’t raise alkalinity, and only raises pH, what is the harm in dosing your tank all the way to 8.4 and pegging it there 24/7 with this product? What other parameters is it messing with? To have strict warnings of not dosing more than 1ml per gallon tells me it is doing something other than just raise pH.

 

[Garf]

If this product doesn’t raise alkalinity, and only raises pH, what is the harm in dosing your tank all the way to 8.4 and pegging it there 24/7 with this product? What other parameters is it messing with? To have strict warnings of not dosing more than 1ml per gallon tells me it is doing something other than just raise pH.

At least Sodium and potassium, apparently when you get yours delivered the posty will be wearing a hazmat suit.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here's what it looks like with NaOH on my tank water.
1 Liter tank water. additions of 1.0M NaOH.
Initial pH 7.72
API:
8 drops green, 9 drops yellow
8 green, 9 yellow

Red Sea: 9.1, 9.1 (0.65mL titrant)

added 0.100mL of 1M NaOH so 0.1 meq/L

pH 7.92
API: 8 drops blue-green, 9 drops yellow
Red Sea 9.3-9.4 (0.67mL titrant)

added a second 0.100mL of 1M NaOH so total 0.2meq/L

pH 8.06
API:
8 drops blue-green, 9 drops yellow with a little green
8 blue-green, 9 yellow with a little green

Red Sea: 9.5-9.6, 9.5-9.6 (0.68-0.69mL titrant)

API instructions are "when it goes from blue to yellow", so you could choose to round all those results to "yellow at 9dKH", but if you look at the colors, it's clear there's a difference, but something less than a full drop.

Red Sea Alk works fine for this. The 1.00mL syringe dispensing the titrant is plenty to pick up what is happening. Look at the target color on the card, average the titrant value when the color is just detectably "bluer" than the target color with the titrant volume when it's just detectably "yellower" than the target.

If it's done side by side with the product and NaOH, it should be clear what's going on.

Thanks for the experiment!

 

[Treefer32]

So, if my PH Is consistently at 7.7 to 7.9 daily. Using baked baking soda, dosing Kalkwasser, maintaining alk around 8-8.3 would be amazing. Are we saying that just a few drops of Brightwells PH+ could stabilize ph much higher without impacting alk?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So, if my PH Is consistently at 7.7 to 7.9 daily. Using baked baking soda, dosing Kalkwasser, maintaining alk around 8-8.3 would be amazing. Are we saying that just a few drops of Brightwells PH+ could stabilize ph much higher without impacting alk?

I'm certainly not saying that, nor is anyone in this thread suggesting it will happen.

 

[MnFish1]

Well, that’s sort of the problem. You are only supposed to use it on tanks that have a low pH due to CO2. That issue tends not to just disappear on its own and if boost + doesn’t increase Alk, users will be in the same boat, tomorrow. Seems like it’s designed for repeat usage, at least until you reach the maximum suggested Alk, when apparently its not such a good idea, according to the sales bumpf.

Yep - I said this before total alkalinity is a 'buffer system' - with multiple chemicals. pH is related, but not the same thing. However - and I'm going to ask @Randy Holmes-Farley - if one kept adding a 'purported' chemical that increases pH - even though it may not measurably (by their testing) - increase alkalinity - it will still do so over time. So - my guess is that the idea is that repeated use of this product will increase alkalinity - though it may not be 'measurable' - after one dose?

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for the experiment!

If this product doesn’t raise alkalinity, and only raises pH, what is the harm in dosing your tank all the way to 8.4 and pegging it there 24/7 with this product? What other parameters is it messing with? To have strict warnings of not dosing more than 1ml per gallon tells me it is doing something other than just raise pH.

Since the purpose of alkalinity is to maintain pH within a certain range (i.e. if you add xxx amount of acid - alkalinity will try to maintain pH, and vice versa if you add a base alkalinity will try to maintain a constant pH (unless you're also adding alkalinity). Frankly - the bottom line - forgetting for a minute the science/experiments - I don't understand why someone would use this product IMHO

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yep - I said this before total alkalinity is a 'buffer system' - with multiple chemicals. pH is related, but not the same thing. However - and I'm going to ask @Randy Holmes-Farley - if one kept adding a 'purported' chemical that increases pH - even though it may not measurably (by their testing) - increase alkalinity - it will still do so over time. So - my guess is that the idea is that repeated use of this product will increase alkalinity - though it may not be 'measurable' - after one dose?

Let’s not make assumptions of it not being measurable after one dose.

This whole discussion arose from my numbers for what hydroxide does, not what a “better” product might do.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Since the purpose of alkalinity is to maintain pH within a certain range (i.e. if you add xxx amount of acid - alkalinity will try to maintain pH, and vice versa if you add a base alkalinity will try to maintain a constant pH (unless you're also adding alkalinity). Frankly - the bottom line - forgetting for a minute the science/experiments - I don't understand why someone would use this product IMHO

If your alk is where you want it and pH is lower then you want for coral growth, one may want a product matching this claim.

 

[MnFish1]

Let’s not make assumptions of it not being measurable after one dose.

This whole discussion arose from my numbers for what hydroxide does, not what a “better” product might do.

Except - thats the assumption made by the company - so I don't know how you argue against the company - when there is no test defined as to how to measure alkalinity does not change. I have already strongly said - API test will not be the appropriate test to decide this issue. I'm not coming down on either side - and Taricha's tests seem to show it increases (alkalinity) - however I wonder if, instead of doing that experiment over hours - if one did it over day to day dosing - whether alkalinity would increase - and if it did - would it be 'clinically significant'

 

[areefer01]

Why would anyone just want to maintain elevated pH for one day?

Maybe someone who is doing a medical treatment or observation on a new fish? Methylene blue bath comes to mind.

 

[Treefer32]

Exactly this is exactly what I'm looking for. My pH on my 340 gallon system struggles to get up to 7.9 during the day and struggles to get above 7.7 at night. I run an ats lights on 24 /7. Skimmer 24/ 7. I tried a co2 scrubber. Maybe raised ph by .02 to .04 when I tried it with fresh media.

Granted at a max of 1 mL per gallon that's 340 mL per day. That's a lot a chemical to be dumping in.

 

[MnFish1]

Exactly this is exactly what I'm looking for. My pH on my 340 gallon system struggles to get up to 7.9 during the day and struggles to get above 7.7 at night. I run an ats lights on 24 /7. Skimmer 24/ 7. I tried a co2 scrubber. Maybe raised ph by .02 to .04 when I tried it with fresh media.

Granted at a max of 1 mL per gallon that's 340 mL per day. That's a lot a chemical to be dumping in.

I would not recommend dumping anything in - instead working on the CO2 levels in the room

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Except - thats the assumption made by the company - so I don't know how you argue against the company - when there is no test defined as to how to measure alkalinity does not change. I have already strongly said - API test will not be the appropriate test to decide this issue. I'm not coming down on either side - and Taricha's tests seem to show it increases (alkalinity) - however I wonder if, instead of doing that experiment over hours - if one did it over day to day dosing - whether alkalinity would increase - and if it did - would it be 'clinically significant'

Taricha showed that hydroxide gives a detectable alk rise using the Red Sea kit. Lets see what happens when folks test the Brightwell product.

 

[MnFish1]

Taricha showed that hydroxide gives a detectable alk rise using the Red Sea kit. Lets see what happens when folks test the Brightwell product.

Right - I know that - the question in my last post was 'will that change in alkalinity be significant and will it last? (I.e. I hope when people are testing the product - when they see an increase in alkalinity (which I think we both agree they will) - will that change be long-lasting/significant/build up over time - or will it go up and then within an hour be back to normal.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Except - thats the assumption made by the company - so I don't know how you argue against the company - when there is no test defined as to how to measure alkalinity does not change. I have already strongly said - API test will not be the appropriate test to decide this issue. I'm not coming down on either side - and Taricha's tests seem to show it increases (alkalinity) - however I wonder if, instead of doing that experiment over hours - if one did it over day to day dosing - whether alkalinity would increase - and if it did - would it be 'clinically significant'

Measuring it over days adds more variables, consumption, precipitation, etc. That won't work.

 

[Miami Reef]

I have salifert and Red Sea alk tests. I am awaiting the Brightwell product. Should be here any day now.

 

[MnFish1]

Measuring it over days adds more variables, consumption, precipitation, etc. That won't work.

My question related to whether if the product is dosed every day, if alkalinity will continue to rise. My assumption is that it would not continue to rise (but I don't know - so I asked the question). I did not mean to suggest adding the product and then measuring alkalinity for days to see what happens - that, as you said, would not work.

The other question relates to the timing of checking alkalinity after dosing the product. If it rises (which I think it will) - what does it matter if in an hour the alkalinity is back to baseline? It would be insignificant for the tank itself. Thus it would make sense to see how long any increase in alkalinity lasts.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The other question relates to the timing of checking alkalinity after dosing the product. If it rises (which I think it will) - what does it matter if in an hour the alkalinity is back to baseline? It would be insignificant for the tank itself. Thus it would make sense to see how long any increase in alkalinity lasts.

You now see the fine print that was never agreed upon by either side of a debate like this and the claim in question is rather open ended, even if it does not appear to be.


"Our product lowers pH when put in the aquarium"

"What do you mean, it is pH 10 to begin with?"

"Well you see our product is quickly eaten by fish because it tastes good... and as you know fish poop is ~6 pH so the net effect, after a day or so is slightly lower pH"

Not that this is that... but the point is that what was a somewhat cut and dry scenario appears (to me) to be becoming a bit fuzzy at the edges and... hedges (pun) are fuzzy.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have salifert and Red Sea alk tests. I am awaiting the Brightwell product. Should be here any day now.

That's great!

Do you have any sodium hydroxide?