Experimental testing of Brightwell Boost pH +

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The other question relates to the timing of checking alkalinity after dosing the product. If it rises (which I think it will) - what does it matter if in an hour the alkalinity is back to baseline? It would be insignificant for the tank itself. Thus it would make sense to see how long any increase in alkalinity lasts.

Curious why you think alkalinity will be a time dependent effect?

Granted the secret idea that Brightwell claims is unknown, but what process are you proposing that will lower the alk an hour later or a day later?

 

[Miami Reef]

That's great!

Do you have any sodium hydroxide?

Oh ya. I have a lot. I intend to replicate Taricha’s experiment tonight.

I’m posting it here for easy access tonight.

Here's what it looks like with NaOH on my tank water.
1 Liter tank water. additions of 1.0M NaOH.
Initial pH 7.72
API:
8 drops green, 9 drops yellow
8 green, 9 yellow

Red Sea: 9.1, 9.1 (0.65mL titrant)

added 0.100mL of 1M NaOH so 0.1 meq/L

pH 7.92
API: 8 drops blue-green, 9 drops yellow
Red Sea 9.3-9.4 (0.67mL titrant)

added a second 0.100mL of 1M NaOH so total 0.2meq/L

pH 8.06
API:
8 drops blue-green, 9 drops yellow with a little green
8 blue-green, 9 yellow with a little green

Red Sea: 9.5-9.6, 9.5-9.6 (0.68-0.69mL titrant)

API instructions are "when it goes from blue to yellow", so you could choose to round all those results to "yellow at 9dKH", but if you look at the colors, it's clear there's a difference, but something less than a full drop.

Red Sea Alk works fine for this. The 1.00mL syringe dispensing the titrant is plenty to pick up what is happening. Look at the target color on the card, average the titrant value when the color is just detectably "bluer" than the target color with the titrant volume when it's just detectably "yellower" than the target.

If it's done side by side with the product and NaOH, it should be clear what's going on.

 

[MnFish1]

Curious why you think alkalinity will be a time dependent effect?

Granted the secret idea that Brightwell claims is unknown, but what process are you proposing that will lower the alk an hour later or a day later?

1 - I think it's easier to prove a dose/time-dependent increase in alkalinity if it's measured more than once. 2. its clear that when dosing alkalinity (on purpose) - that one can often see a transient precipitate that rapidly 'reverses'. 3. To me - it becomes a moot point if this product increases alkalinity for 10 minutes vs 3 days. If it rapidly reverses (because its a nearly insignificant effect anyway) - why would I as a customer care? (and PS - it seems clear to me that thats the tack the company seems to be taking using an API test kit).

So, in the end - the chemical equation is likely going to be proven correct - there is a slight alkalinity increase with the product - however if that increase is not sustained or within the error of (pick your alkalinity test) - it becomes a non-issue to me. On the contrary, if the product use results in a sustained significant elevation in alkalinity, that to me is a significant issue. On a similar note - it would also be interesting to me - to see how long the 'ph Boost' lasts, Because if it doesn't last - thats also an issue (for me)

 

[MnFish1]

Curious why you think alkalinity will be a time dependent effect?

Sorry - forgot this one. I'm not suggesting it will or won't be - however it would be interesting to see both how long and how much both the pH and alkalinity changes last - using tank water - which would have a lot of other potential chemicals, as compared to a freshly made vial of salt water.

 

[Miami Reef]

Well, I’m personally going to sustain the Brightwell experiment long term (a few days). I plan to dose Brightwell Boost pH+ and use my Apex probe to monitor pH 24/7. I will test alkalinity daily (after each dose) to see if it continues to trend upward or not.

I‘m going to use reef tank water. I don’t mind using new water if you want me to. This is a really easy experiment.

 

[taricha]

Tank water (pulled out of the tank) is fine, since they suggested there's some interaction with organics in tank water.
Don't bother trying to do it in-tank. The pH rise will increase Alk uptake and hopelessly tangle the variables.
If you want to extend it over a few days, that's fine - a liter of tank water with sodium hydroxide added should go up in alk a bit, and then stir and leave it. Next day top back up to the line with RODI, dose NaOH again, and the alk would go up another step higher than the day before. etc. With NaOH at least (or other known alk sources), the alk won't be a temporary bump but an additive one. This sets up a side by side test with the product that has Hydroxide in it but says it doesn't raise alk.
(The pH bump will be partially temporary as Randy illustrated)

Here’s the result for the pH found immediately, and then after 24 and 120 hours of sitting, unstirred, in an open 500- mL beaker:

Supplement	Initial pH	24 hour pH	120 hour pH
none	8.10	8.11	8.21
0.5 meq/L HCO3-	8.06	8.15	8.33
0.5 meq/L CO3–	8.44	8.28	8.34
0.5 meq/L OH-	8.76	8.47	8.33
0.5 meq/L H+	6.91	7.91	8.15

From this data it is clear to see the large increase in pH caused by the addition of hydroxide, and also the significant increase when using

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree outside the tank is best so there is no issue of organisms using alk.

There should be no change in alk over time (a few days) in a test container when not dosing, as long as calcium carbonate isn’t precipitating. I have no idea what time frame a secret process to boost ph and not alk might involve. pH may be changing over time, and any pH boosting in water equilibrated with the air will immediately begin to decline.

It was Seachem that commented on organic wastes. Brightwell/Jsck Kent did not, but he did express some reservations about raw salt water.

 

[MnFish1]

Well, I’m personally going to sustain the Brightwell experiment long term (a few days). I plan to dose Brightwell Boost pH+ and use my Apex probe to monitor pH 24/7. I will test alkalinity daily (after each dose) to see if it continues to trend upward or not.

I‘m going to use reef tank water. I don’t mind using new water if you want me to. This is a really easy experiment.

Awesome!!!!!

 

[Miami Reef]

The result for Sodium Hydroxide is in. @Randy Holmes-Farley @taricha

I made a 1M solution of NaOH by dissolving 4g NaOH in 100mL

I took 1L of tank water. Here are the measurements:

I cleaned my probe with a muriatic acid solution and recalibrated it for this project.

pH of tank water: 7.89
Alkalinity tested with salifert
Trial 1: 0.57mL = 6.5dKH
Trial 2: 0.56mL = 6.7dKH
Trial 3: 0.57mL = 6.5dKH

Added 0.1mL of the 1M NaOH to the beaker. Stirred with a glass rod. pH probe remained in the beaker the entirety.

New pH 8.03 (.14 increase)
Alk reading: 0.49mL = 7.8dKH (1.3dKH increase)

Added 0.2mL of 1M NaOH

New pH reading: 8.28 (0.25 increase)
Alk reading:
Trial 1: 0.47mL = 8.1dKH
Trial 2: 0.47mL = 8.1dKH (0.3dKH increase from last reading)

Added 0.2mL 1M NaOH
pH: 8.45 (0.17 increase)
Alk: 0.41mL = 9.1dKH (1dKH increase)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

1 M NaOH = 1,000 meq/L

Each 0.1 mL of 1 M NaOH = 1,000 meq/L contains 0.1 meq of alk

0.1 meq added to 1 L should boost alk by 0.1 meq/L = 0.28 dKH.

The first alk boost looks unusually high at 1.3 dKH. (expecting0.28 dKH)

The second alk boost at 0.3 dKH looks smaller than expected for 0.2 mL added.

The third alk boost at 1 dKH looks unusually high for 0.2 mL added (0.5 dKH expected).

Overall, 0.5 mL was added for an expected boost of 1.4 dKH. Measured boost was 2.5dKH. Seems high to me.

Does that seem a correct analysis?


I can believe a value a little lower than expected from water or CO2 getting into the NaOH, but higher doesn't seem plausible.

 

[Miami Reef]

1 M NaOH = 1,000 meq/L

Each 0.1 mL of 1 M NaOH = 1,000 meq/L contains 0.1 meq of alk

0.1 meq added to 1 L should boost alk by 0.1 meq/L = 0.28 dKH.

The first alk boost looks unusually high at 1.3 dKH. (expecting0.28 dKH)

The second alk boost at 0.3 dKH looks smaller than expected for 0.2 mL added.

The third alk boost at 1 dKH looks unusually high for 0.2 mL added (0.5 dKH expected).

Overall, 0.5 mL was added for an expected boost of 1.4 dKH. Measured boost was 2.5dKH. Seems high to me.

Does that seem a correct analysis?


I can believe a value a little lower than expected from water or CO2 getting into the NaOH, but higher doesn't seem plausible.

Could it be because I removed volume from the beaker when doing each test? I needed to remove about 36mL-40mL throughout the test. The volume of the beaker kept getting smaller.

I’m going to reattempt the experiment and make sure I test 3 times for each addition in case there were testing errors.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Could it be because I removed volume from the beaker when doing each test? I needed to remove about 36mL-40mL throughout the test. The volume of the beaker kept getting smaller.

I’m going to reattempt the experiment and make sure I test 3 times for each addition in case there were testing errors.

That would not explain the issues, but variations inaccuracies in the alk test would.

Which kit was it?

The pH rise is more consistent than the alk testing. One expects the pH rise to get smaller as both the pH and the alk rise.

 

[Miami Reef]

That would not explain the issues, but variations inaccuracies in the alk test would.

Which kit was it?

The pH rise is more consistent than the alk testing. One expects the pH rise to get smaller as both the pH and the alk rise.

It was the salifert. I think the kit may have been the issue.

I’m receiving a brand new bottle of Red Sea alkalinity pro reagents at the same time as Brightwell pH boost +, so I’ll reattempt the NaOH then.

 

[taricha]

to Randy's point, here's what the data looks like vs expected theory...

If we ignore the initial water measurements, the rest looks pretty ok.
If the initial water measurement was correct then there's something else odd going on.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

to Randy's point, here's what the data looks like vs expected theory...

If we ignore the initial water measurements, the rest looks pretty ok.
If the initial water measurement was correct then there's something else odd going on.

Thanks for plotting it. Yes, I agree.

 

[hunterallen40]

Following.

I've seen people suggest that these products could be used to pin their pH with an Apex, dosing to keep pH at a constant value...

If brightwell has come up with a magic solution for this, then proving it publicly and having it replicated here would be VERY good for their revenue.

But I don't think that's going to be the case.

 

[Miami Reef]

@Randy Holmes-Farley @taricha

I redid the sodium hydroxide experiment with a new salifert test kit. I’m still waiting on the Red Sea alk and Brightwell boost pH+


I’m going to try to graph it on my own, but I never did a graph like that in a while, so pardon me in case I couldn’t figure it out before you get to the results.


pH Start: 7.95
Starting alk: 7.3dKH

1L beaker test tank with magnetic stirrer and pH probe.

Dosed 0.2mL of 1M NaOH

pH: 8.21
Alk: 8.15dKH

added another 0.2mL of 1M NaOH

pH: 8.41
Alk: 8.75dKH

 

[MnFish1]

@Randy Holmes-Farley @taricha

I redid the sodium hydroxide experiment with a new salifert test kit. I’m still waiting on the Red Sea alk and Brightwell boost pH+


I’m going to try to graph it on my own, but I never did a graph like that in a while, so pardon me in case I couldn’t figure it out before you get to the results.


pH Start: 7.95
Starting alk: 7.3dKH

1L beaker test tank with magnetic stirrer and pH probe.

Dosed 0.2mL of 1M NaOH

pH: 8.21
Alk: 8.15dKH

added another 0.2mL of 1M NaOH

pH: 8.41
Alk: 8.75dKH

It would be helpful if you could post the standard deviation of your measurements - and the timing of the measurements (after addition)

 

[Miami Reef]

It would be helpful if you could post the standard deviation of your measurements - and the timing of the measurements (after addition)

I let it mix for about 1-2 minutes before taking the alk reading.

 

[MnFish1]

I let it mix for about 1-2 minutes before taking the alk reading.

Though others disagree - I think a couple readings - let's say every hour for 3 hours would be interesting. Thanks for doing the work