Experimental testing of Brightwell Boost pH +

[taricha]

Here's Dan's comparison overlayed. It makes the text annoying, but the Graph axes are overlayed precisely which makes the comparison pretty clear.
The pH trends (orange data) are the same, and the measured alkalinity...
Blue circles for NaOH and Red circles for boost pH simply could not be any closer.

 

[Dan_P]

Here's Dan's comparison overlayed. It makes the text annoying, but the Graph axes are overlayed precisely which makes the comparison pretty clear.
The pH trends (orange data) are the same, and the measured alkalinity...
Blue circles for NaOH and Red circles for boost pH simply could not be any closer.

I guess the magic and mystery are gone.

The instructions for this product struck me as being generated to be confusing just to sustain the magic. I am curious what the vendors thought they were selling.

 

[rtparty]

Based off everything I know from these experiments, the company in question, and their responses thus far...I am seriously questioning if Brightwell dosed pH Boost+ to an aquarium and then tested the alkalinity effect with API and thought that was "lab tested/researched" enough?

It is pretty telling that when questioned by Randy they immediately used an API kit to try and prove their point. That is a MAJOR red flag IMO. Again, not bashing API here. It simply isn't sensitive enough to track these movements and someone like Jack should know that. If he doesn't, well then that leads to an entirely different discussion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Very interesting.

Can you folks plotting these plot the measured alk rise vs the measured pH rise for the product and hydroxide?

That seems the most readily interpreted graph for a product that purports to have a bigger pH boost per alk added (if any) compared to the known component in it (hydroxide).

That is my explicit complaint, and which Jack says won’t be true.

 

[taricha]

I guess the magic and mystery are gone.

Nonsense.
You managed to titrate something that has no alkalinity. Strong chemical Kung Fu there. Don't try this at home kids.

 

[Dan_P]

Based off everything I know from these experiments, the company in question, and their responses thus far...I am seriously questioning if Brightwell dosed pH Boost+ to an aquarium and then tested the alkalinity effect with API and thought that was "lab tested/researched" enough?

It is pretty telling that when questioned by Randy they immediately used an API kit to try and prove their point. That is a MAJOR red flag IMO. Again, not bashing API here. It simply isn't sensitive enough to track these movements and someone like Jack should know that. If he doesn't, well then that leads to an entirely different discussion.

Maybe just as telling that he had to run tests rather than open the file on the product and share the data supporting the claims.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Nonsense.
You managed to titrate something that has no alkalinity. Strong chemical Kung Fu there. Don't try this at home kids.

lol that’s a good one!

 

[Dan_P]

Very interesting.

Can you folks plotting these plot the measured alk rise vs the measured pH rise for the product and hydroxide?

That seems the most readily interpreted graph for a product that purports to have a bigger pH boost per alk added (if any) compared to the known component in it (hydroxide).

That is my explicit complaint, and which Jack says won’t be true.

i will post them tomorrow.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Maybe just as telling that he had to run tests rather than open the file on the product and share the data supporting the claims.

Excellent point!

 

[Dan_P]

Very interesting.

Can you folks plotting these plot the measured alk rise vs the measured pH rise for the product and hydroxide?

That seems the most readily interpreted graph for a product that purports to have a bigger pH boost per alk added (if any) compared to the known component in it (hydroxide).

That is my explicit complaint, and which Jack says won’t be true.

I got off my rear and made the charts. Shouldn’t have.

Looks like Boost pH+ is causing the alkalinity Checker to read higher than expected alkalinity. For hydroxide, there is perfect agreement. The effect is stronger in the higher alkalinity IO.

I am going to bed now and hope tomorrow morning you say “of course, the proprietary base is interfering with the pH indicator”.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are ways that the Hanna and an alk titration will not agree. I am not sure how low the Hanna typically lowers pH but it presumably is substantially higher than the true endpoint in the low 4’s.

anything that is still taking up a lot of acid near the alk titration endpoint will give very different results. Organic acids such as acetate/acetic acid have their pKa in this range. Thus, seawater plus acetate will give a different alk in a titration than in the Hanna type of test. It should be higher in the full alk titration.

In the other hand, anything fully done titrating in the Hanna will make the Hanna read too high. Adding more borate/boric acid will have this effect since the borate is fully titrated long before the true alk endpoint.

In any case, it 1s curious that the tank water and IO look different.

Lets see if that is a real differences or if the deviation in the bottom graph reproduces when Miami does his tests. It may just be random error.

 

[Dan_P]

Here is a better perspective about how the Hanna Alkalinity Checker is measuring alkalinity in the presence of Boost pH+. The expected alkalinity is the first Checker reading plus the alkalinity added. The Checker reads higher alkalinity than what was added when Boost pH+ is present and the effect is larger at higher alkalinity. Just a reminder, I determined the alkalinity of Boost pH+ by titrating it with acid and measuring the pH with a meter.

Is the product claim really an artifact of Boost pH+ interfering with pH indicators? And did the instruction about having the alkalinity in a certain range derive from the fact that the artifact is only seen at higher alkalinities?

 

[Dan_P]

There are ways that the Hanna and an alk titration will not agree. I am not sure how low the Hanna typically lowers pH but it presumably is substantially higher than the true endpoint in the low 4’s.

anything that is still taking up a lot of acid near the alk titration endpoint will give very different results. Organic acids such as acetate/acetic acid have their pKa in this range. Thus, seawater plus acetate will give a different alk in a titration than in the Hanna type of test. It should be higher in the full alk titration.

In the other hand, anything fully done titrating in the Hanna will make the Hanna read too high. Adding more borate/boric acid will have this effect since the borate is fully titrated long before the true alk endpoint.

In any case, it js curious that the tank water and IO look different.

Lets see if that is a real differences or if the deviation in the bottom graph reproduces when Miami dies his tests. It may just be random error.

Just added four more plots showing how Boost pH+ but not sodium hydroxide screws up the Checker reading. The issue with the Hanna Checker seems like it would also play out with traditional titration methods using a pH indicator.

 

[Dan_P]

There are ways that the Hanna and an alk titration will not agree. I am not sure how low the Hanna typically lowers pH but it presumably is substantially higher than the true endpoint in the low 4’s.

anything that is still taking up a lot of acid near the alk titration endpoint will give very different results. Organic acids such as acetate/acetic acid have their pKa in this range. Thus, seawater plus acetate will give a different alk in a titration than in the Hanna type of test. It should be higher in the full alk titration.

In the other hand, anything fully done titrating in the Hanna will make the Hanna read too high. Adding more borate/boric acid will have this effect since the borate is fully titrated long before the true alk endpoint.

In any case, it js curious that the tank water and IO look different.

Lets see if that is a real differences or if the deviation in the bottom graph reproduces when Miami dies his tests. It may just be random error.

Yes, Hanna reads higher than titration with pH meter, but the deviation is linear across alkalinity range I am using.

Yeah, I get the weak acid concept and the titration curve of Boost pH+ certainly looks like this is the case. However, the inaccurate reading of Hanna should be duplicated when titrating with any pH indicator, right?

 

[Dan_P]

Back to the main theme while I figure out the alkalinity Checker.

Since I measured the alkalinity of Boost pH+, I do not need to measure the alkalinity after adding it to the sample. I know the volume of Boost pH+ added and the volume of the sample and can calculate the resulting alkalinity. So, here are the results of how pH changes with increasing alkalinity from NaOH and Boost pH+ additions to either aquarium water or Instant Ocean. . It seems Randy was correct.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, Dan.

The first graph in post #1 is the definitive experiment that Jack was requesting (boost pH+ in tank water), although he did express reservations in advance of any results here about the Hannna checker:

"One concern I have is the alkalinity testing method. We have seen some issues with the Hanna checkers among hobbyists and need a way to make sure that we don’t have errors due to faulty equipment. I would prefer a colorimetric test."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I cannot see how faulty equipment can possibly explain the result that Boost pH+ matches hydroxide in alk need per pH boost, but Miami will be using a different alk method, I think, and that should confirm it.

 

[Dan_P]

I cannot see how faulty equipment can possibly explain the result that Boost pH+ matches hydroxide in alk need per pH boost, but Miami will be using a different alk method, I think, and that should confirm it.

Post #115 eliminates any issues with alkalinity measurements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, Dan. I agree with your statement about alk testing not being an issue.

I passed along to Jack the top graph from post 110, and gave him the link to this thread again so he can follow if he chooses. I mentioned that another test would be completed before long. He said he may comment when the testing is done.

 

[Miami Reef]

I received the bottle today. I’ll have the results tonight.

I’m going to use both salifert and Red Sea alk kits prior to additions, then ill add BBPH+ to get a pH of 8.3-8.4, then I’ll measure the alkalinity with salifert and Red Sea.

I’m going to use tank water.