Fauna Marin balling trace with ESV 2 part

[boxgj]

Is it possible to add this to my ESV 2 part? I know alkalinity is by itself and the second part contains calcium and magnesium. Yours help would be greatly appreciated

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Do the bottles say what is in them? The web site does not seem to say anything about composition that I can find.

 

[boxgj]

Trace 1 contains: Potassium, Strontium, Boron, Selenium, Rubidium, Vanadium, Flourine. Based on organic and inorganic compounds.

Trace 2 contains: Iron, Manganese, Copper, Nickel, Zinc, Chromium. Based on organic and inorganic compounds.

Trace. 3 contains: Potassium, Sodium Fluor, Iodine, Bromine, stabilizers. Based on inorganic compounds

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Trace 1 contains: Potassium, Strontium, Boron, Selenium, Rubidium, Vanadium, Flourine. Based on organic and inorganic compounds.

Trace 2 contains: Iron, Manganese, Copper, Nickel, Zinc, Chromium. Based on organic and inorganic compounds.

Trace. 3 contains: Potassium, Sodium Fluor, Iodine, Bromine, stabilizers. Based on inorganic compounds

I’m not sure exactly how those are formulated, and specifically whether there is sulfate in them which will precipitate from a calcium supplement, but that’s the part I would try putting all three into if you want to do so.

Note the stabilizer in trace 3 that probably tries to reduce oxidation of iodide to iodate. It will be less effective when diluted into a larger volume.

 

[boxgj]

Nah I’ll leave it alone and stay with the basics. When I was watching the fauna Marin video I started getting confused and realizing this would complicated lol but thanks

 

[Big E]

Is it possible to add this to my ESV 2 part? I know alkalinity is by itself and the second part contains calcium and magnesium. Yours help would be greatly appreciated

I would get an ICP done to see where you're at as you're already getting trace elements from the ESV B-ionics.

ESV makes a Transition Elements mix to add more zinc, manganese and iron if needed

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I would get an ICP done to see where you're at as you're already getting trace elements from the ESV B-ionics.

ESV makes a Transition Elements mix to add more zinc, manganese and iron if needed

I would challenge that assertion a bit. The trace elements in ESV B-ionic are not suitable for offsetting consumption, and that is not why they are there. They are there to prevent a lowering of the major, minor and trace elements when salinity is lowered to offset accumulating sodium and chloride.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/how-a...-calcium-system-works-and-why-it-matters.958/

Ion Balance

There are three fundamentally different ways to dealing with the ion imbalances and reductions caused by the accumulating sodium and chloride and subsequent salinity adjustments. These are:

1. Incorporating some or all ions impacted by this issue into one of the two parts of a two part system. This method is used by ESV B-ionic and a number of other brands. I have never seen any data of any sort that shows how well any manufacturer implements this method, and to elect a commercial system of this sort requires a substantial amount of trust that they know what they are doing, and then also did it properly. There are also some DIY recipes that use this method, though they are typically limited in the number of ions used.

This overall procedure involves more than just adding what was taken out in the salinity correction because sodium and chloride actually rise more than the salinity overall. In our example above, salinity rose by 7.5 ppt (21%) over a year, while sodium rose by 8 mg/L per day = 2920 mg/L in a year, which is approximately 10,800 mg/L to 13720 mg/L, or a 27% rise. Thus, even if we correct salinity back by 21%, sodium will still be high and everything else (except chloride) will be a bit low. To keep the water looking like seawater, one needs to add back even more of the ions that were depressed, which in turn raises salinity again, which in turn needs another correction. One can solve this problem on a spread sheet, and I won’t go into the complexity. That complexity, however, is a reason to only use a two part where you have confidence that the employees of the company are able to understand and deal with that complexity in design.

The other aspect of this design is deciding what forms of the ions can be put into which part of the two part. Sulfate is the biggest mass additive in this procedure, and it must be put into the alkalinity part because putting it into the calcium part results in precipitation of calcium sulfate. The designers also need to decide how to add it. It is likely all sodium sulfate, (boosting sodium again) or it could partly be potassium sulfate and other ions. In short, it’s a logic puzzle for chemists to decide what can be put where for the lowest cost and best performance. Since there are potentially dozens of chemicals to worry about, it is a nontrivial problem.

 

[Big E]

I would challenge that assertion a bit. The trace elements in ESV B-ionic are not suitable for offsetting consumption, and that is not why they are there. They are there to prevent a lowering of the major, minor and trace elements when salinity is lowered to offset accumulating sodium and chloride.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/how-a...-calcium-system-works-and-why-it-matters.958/

Ion Balance

There are three fundamentally different ways to dealing with the ion imbalances and reductions caused by the accumulating sodium and chloride and subsequent salinity adjustments. These are:

1. Incorporating some or all ions impacted by this issue into one of the two parts of a two part system. This method is used by ESV B-ionic and a number of other brands. I have never seen any data of any sort that shows how well any manufacturer implements this method, and to elect a commercial system of this sort requires a substantial amount of trust that they know what they are doing, and then also did it properly. There are also some DIY recipes that use this method, though they are typically limited in the number of ions used.

This overall procedure involves more than just adding what was taken out in the salinity correction because sodium and chloride actually rise more than the salinity overall. In our example above, salinity rose by 7.5 ppt (21%) over a year, while sodium rose by 8 mg/L per day = 2920 mg/L in a year, which is approximately 10,800 mg/L to 13720 mg/L, or a 27% rise. Thus, even if we correct salinity back by 21%, sodium will still be high and everything else (except chloride) will be a bit low. To keep the water looking like seawater, one needs to add back even more of the ions that were depressed, which in turn raises salinity again, which in turn needs another correction. One can solve this problem on a spread sheet, and I won’t go into the complexity. That complexity, however, is a reason to only use a two part where you have confidence that the employees of the company are able to understand and deal with that complexity in design.

The other aspect of this design is deciding what forms of the ions can be put into which part of the two part. Sulfate is the biggest mass additive in this procedure, and it must be put into the alkalinity part because putting it into the calcium part results in precipitation of calcium sulfate. The designers also need to decide how to add it. It is likely all sodium sulfate, (boosting sodium again) or it could partly be potassium sulfate and other ions. In short, it’s a logic puzzle for chemists to decide what can be put where for the lowest cost and best performance. Since there are potentially dozens of chemicals to worry about, it is a nontrivial problem.

Hence why is said to get an ICP done.............not sure what your beef is in what I said. Water changes will also play a role as well as what's in the food possibly.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hence why is said to get an ICP done.............not sure what your beef is in what I said. Water changes will also play a role as well as what's in the food possibly.

My concern was that folks might come away from this statement of yours

as you're already getting trace elements from the ESV B-ionics.

thinking that ESV B-ionic is usefully adding trace elements and that ought to be taken into account when adding trace elements to offset consumption as the product the OP is using properly does. That is a common misconception that I am constantly trying to get folks to correctly understand. It does not do so.

 

[Big E]

My concern was that folks might come away from this statement of yours

as you're already getting trace elements from the ESV B-ionics.

thinking that ESV B-ionic is usefully adding trace elements and that ought to be taken into account when adding trace elements to offset consumption as the product the OP is using properly does. That is a common misconception that I am constantly trying to get folks to correctly understand. It does not do so.

Do you have any data to confirm that for someone dosing ESV and doing water changes?

I'm suggesting the OP get an ICP to get a baseline of consumption before he adds lower level traces. It's also important to get an ICP of the fresh mix saltwater he uses. I never said ESV is going to satisfy every trace depletion in a system because of what's in it's two part solution.

This is straight from Bob Stark.............maybe this will make it more clear about what I was trying to communicate. I never said you don't need to add certain elements if you want to chase numbers of every element in seawater.


https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-better-understanding-of-esv-b-ionic-2-part.595140/
B-IonicCalcium Buffer is a complete ionically balanced 2 part meaning theresidual ions left behind (after the calcium and carbonate alkalinitydosed to an aquarium is removed by calcification) duplicate all theimportant major, minor, and trace elements of an artificial seawatermix in their correct ratios. The product was developed in 1995 toaddress the issue of a slow trend toward ionic imbalance when usingjust calcium chloride and sodium carbonate/bicarbonate. In thatsituation the residual ions left behind after calcification wouldjust be sodium and chloride. As salinity was corrected, the tankwater would drift more and more towards just being a sodium chloridesolution thereby lowering the concentration of some importantelements. Water changes would slow down that process. In a nutshell,when you add equal amounts of our two components, you are addinghighly concentrated, balanced amounts of calcium and alkalinity alongwith a pinch of an artificial seawater mix. With calcium chloride andsodium bicarbonate/carbonate additions, you are also adding highlyconcentrated calcium and alkalinity, but with a pinch of just sodiumchloride instead. Given that, with B-Ionic 2 part all the importantions of an artificial seawater mix are being added daily (includingmagnesium) but there is no possibility of overdosing any of thoseresidual ions as long as salinity is maintained. If the salinity ofthe system rises, and tank water must be removed and replaced withRO/DI water, then that is in essence a small water change where thesalt mix was the residual ions of our 2 part. That small "waterchange" can be effective at helping to stabilize certain ionsthat tend to drop over time in addition to calcium and alkalinity.For example magnesium and potassium. Magnesium is going into thesystem as part of the residual seawater ions, but that addition maynot be enough to keep up with the system's demands. Other ions maynot be supplied in enough quantity with these residual ions, such asiodide, strontium, and the transition metals iron, manganese, andzinc. For this reason we have separate supplements for magnesium,iodide, strontium, and our Transition Elements additive whichcontains iron, manganese, and zinc). Our magnesium supplement is nota 3rd part of our B-Ionic 2 part, and should only be added as testingdictates. In the systems at ESV we test for magnesium once per monthand find B-Ionic 2 part keeps the levels fairly stable sosupplemental addition is only occasionally called for. Many hobbyistsI speak with are surprised to hear this because some other productsintroduced later to the market are true 3 part systems where themagnesium is in a third component presumably because they usemagnesium sulfate which would be incompatible in either the calciumcomponent (calcium sulfate would precipitate) or the alkalinitycomponent (magnesium carbonate would precipitate). We were able tosimplify things and incorporate the magnesium and sulfate within thetwo parts by using different magnesium and sulfate salts that arecompatible with the calcium and alkalinity components. Regardingconcentrations you are correct, the alkalinity component is 2800meq/Liter (7840 dKH). The calcium component is 62,752 mg/L. Themagnesium in the two part is in the calcium component, and it'sconcentration is proprietary but remember, you can't overdosemagnesium by using B-Ionic 2 part as long as the aquarium salinity ismaintained because the magnesium ions are in the correct artificialseawater ratio with the other residual ions. If the magnesium doestest low due to high demand (aquariums with a high bioload ofcoralline algae for example), we have a separate B-Ionic Magnesiumsupplement only to be used as needed. The concentration of thatproduct is 36,000 ppm magnesium. I hope this info helps clear thingsup and thanks for your questions, kind words, and interest in theproduct. Next year B-Ionic Calcium Buffer turns 25 years old! BestRegards,

Bob Stark





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I'mglad the B-Ionic 2 Part is working out for you and thanks forspreading the word! You are correct in that the amount of certainelements provided by the product may not keep up with demand,although significant trace elements are added to our systems simplyby feeding. Depending on how much of the 2 part is added, certainmajor elements can stay in the ballpark with the 2 part alone..likemagnesium, potassium, and sulfate. Others, as you suggest, areprobably not being added in sufficient quantity so we suggest onceper week additions of our B-Ionic Strontium and B-Ionic Iodide. Inaddition, for tanks over 4 months old and more populated, werecommend daily additions of our B-Ionic Transition Elements whichprovide very low doses of Iron, Manganese, and Zinc. We also have aTransition Elements Plus product that supplies the same amounts ofthese elements but also adds citric acid and ascorbic acid for carbondosing if the aquarist is battling higher nitrates. I'm not too keenon supplying trace elements which can be required by non calcifyinginhabitants (macro algae and soft corals) based on calcificationrates alone, but I see some of the logic behind it. My guess is theRed Sea Colors are probably safe to use with our B-Ionic, but don'tknow enough about their product line to say with absolute certainty.All of the above mentioned ESV additives, in addition to the 2 Part,have been formulated to fall a little under the radar of traceelement overdose and based on our testing and feedback from customerswho have run ICP, we are confident the dosages are safe. Hope thisinfo helps and thanks again for using our products!

BobStark

ESV Aquarium Products Inc.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This is exactly my point. Folks read there are trace elements and misunderstand the product.

My assertion is not driven by data. It is driven by knowing from both Bob and ESV exactly how it is designed. It can be gleaned from exactly what you posted from them.

Based on the written ESV claims, adding 1 dKH per day of both parts is the same, in terms of trace elements, as doing a 0.08% water change each day with natural seawater. That amounts to 0.6% per week, and is nearly meaningless with respect to supplementation.

 

[Big E]

It doesn't change the fact that with water changes and ESV a lot of those element levels may be ok. This is extremely evident for people without acros or not using algae filters.

There is nothing I said or posted that is wrong.

I've seen dozens of times when people dose those trace element soups end up with dangerous levels in some of them....................again, it's why I said to get an ICP done and set a baseline before he doses anything.

I understand your point but I doesn't sit right with me for you to pick out a small phrase and make it seem I'm fostering a misconception.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It doesn't change the fact that with water changes and ESV a lot of those element levels may be ok. This is extremely evident for people without acros or not using algae filters.

There is nothing I said or posted that is wrong.

I've seen dozens of times when people dose those trace element soups end up with dangerous levels in some of them....................again, it's why I said to get an ICP done and set a baseline before he doses anything.

I understand your point but I doesn't sit right with me for you to pick out a small phrase and make it seem I'm fostering a misconception.

I’m sorry you think I singled out your comments for inappropriate criticism.

Trace element addition need is an area fraught with unknowns. There is very little useful information on exactly which levels and chemical forms of each trace element are too little or too much, and how well water changes and foods satisfy each of those many different needs.

The nature of trace elements in ESV B-ionic is a commonly misunderstood topic, even if you understand it perfectly. I have posted on many occasions to correct misunderstandings in those levels vs the levels in other brands of two part systems which are actually intended to offset consumption. The same happens with Balling Part C misunderstanding, and I post about that one a lot too.

If readers understand that those trace elements are like very tiny water changes, then my work is done and I’m happy.

Happy Holidays and Happy Reefing!