First quarantine- am I ready?

[Mjrenz]

I don't remember if this has already been shared but these links may help you make a decision
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/thread-links-to-all-things-quarantine-fish-inverts.602917/
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-eradication-vs-ich-management.188775/

 

[ZipAdeeZoa]

Well that's a good thing! Whether you add him to the DT or not is going to have to be your call, since it's been 30 days odds are he doesn't have anything serious that he can take into the tank with him, however, the only way to be certain is prophylactic treatment. It depends on the type of risk you're willing to take.

I think I'm feeling as comfortable with the situation as I can be considering this is my first time and I have yet to get the pulse on saltwater that I have on my other animals and casts a shadow of doubt over my every move since I started my tank. I might wait a little longer, I'm doing water change tomorrow and I'm going to test everything before hand, try and get my MP10 working and change out the carbon/filter floss.

Also thanks for the links! I have checked those threads out (and most of the threads they have links to). I did have trouble finding much info on the life cycle of black ich to be certain its just hypermelanization I'm seeing (I'm leaning towards yes because the spots have changed or spread) but I would like know how long it would be before I'd see more spots appear in the case of black ich. It's been 24 days since I noticed the two black spots and I just realized I'm at 35 days of QT... Time flies!

 

[Lasse]

I´m in the age when you are interested in your own poop - but I would not worry about that kind of poop. If the fish t show normally behaviour and eat normally. No worries. Your question inspired me to write a post in the disease part about these white poops - and it is very clear that it is different opinions according this and to chemical prophylactic treatment too - like in this thread. Read both these links and others and make your own decision. IMO - you are doing fine.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ZipAdeeZoa]

I´m in the age when you are interested in your own poop - but I would not worry about that kind of poop. If the fish t show normally behaviour and eat normally. No worries. Your question inspired me to write a post in the disease part about these white poops - and it is very clear that it is different opinions according this and to chemical prophylactic treatment too - like in this thread. Read both these links and others and make your own decision. IMO - you are doing fine.

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks Lasse! I saw your thread about that and have been following it from afar but I have seen how everyone oretty much feels differently about the subject, I really enjoyed your write up and a seeing a different take on it though!

Do you believe the black spots are simply hypermelanization if they haven’t spread or changed over the course of 24 days?

 

[ngoodermuth]

Could you take a few updated photos?

 

[Lasse]

Do you believe the black spots are simply hypermelanization if they haven’t spread or changed over the course of 24 days?

Yes - IMO is more likely that compared with a disease.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ZipAdeeZoa]

Could you take a few updated photos?

I was going to say of course but then I realized the fish has to decide if he's going to let me- I'll pull out my tripod and my macro lens when I get home today and what I can do!

Yes - IMO is more likely that compared with a disease.

Sincerely Lasse

Good to know! I'll try and get some higher res photos of the spots just to be safe!

 

[ngoodermuth]

There are definitely very different opinions on prophylactic treatments. And a spectrum of “in-between” protocols using either some medications or alternatives such as low-salinity treatments. There’s not one way to do anything in this hobby. There are risks on both sides, regardless of your stance.

My personal run-ins with Marine Velvet landed me in the prophylactic treatment camp. I’ve seen quite a few nasties in QT and around here since, which keeps me there. My current fish in my DT get my consideration first and foremost, so I take the risk of losing fish in QT over losing all of the fish in my tank to velvet (again).

But again, it’s been my own experiences that brought me here and you will hear other experiences where people don’t QT at all and keep healthy fish based purely on being picky and only selecting fish in person that are eating.

You’ll have to do a little research, and land where you feel most comfortable. Most around here are very respectful of personal values, and only try to help as best they can.

 

[ZipAdeeZoa]

There are definitely very different opinions on prophylactic treatments. And a spectrum of “in-between” protocols using either some medications or alternatives such as low-salinity treatments. There’s not one way to do anything in this hobby. There are risks on both sides, regardless of your stance.

My personal run-ins with Marine Velvet landed me in the prophylactic treatment camp. I’ve seen quite a few nasties in QT and around here since, which keeps me there. My current fish in my DT get my consideration first and foremost, so I take the risk of losing fish in QT over losing all of the fish in my tank to velvet (again).

But again, it’s been my own experiences that brought me here and you will hear other experiences where people don’t QT at all and keep healthy fish based purely on being picky and only selecting fish in person that are eating.

You’ll have to do a little research, and land where you feel most comfortable. Most around here are very respectful of personal values, and only try to help as best they can.

Honestly until very recently prophylactic treatment seemed to make the most sense, as I mentioned before times are changing up here in the great white north and it seems that trend may continue elsewhere. I really don't like being anything close to a trail blazer, I'm much more of sheep when it comes to reefing. I avoid riding the edge, try and play it safe and do my best to only implement what is currently accepted by the majority and has the most scientific support but now that almost all the meds are pulled from the shelves ( RIP prazipro and methylne blue) I don't really see a sustainable future for prophylactic treatment in Canada. I don't necessarily know if thats a good thing or bad thing but I do know thats the situation and if this hobby is to continue existing up here then we have to start adapting to it. I really don't like the amount of uncertainty in the approach I'm taking but we can only grow when we're out our comfort zone so hopefully I'm doing just that. The respect and understanding I see on R2R on a regular basis is a large part of why I set up shop on this forum. Everyone has a different understanding, approach and situation that dictates those two things and R2R seems to show the deepest understanding of that as a whole.

I'm happy to report that my fish seems to be broken- not camera shy and quickly came back out of hiding after a drastic change of lighting (QT doesn't have light and that wasn't working for macro). I'm pretty sure the photos confirm that the two black dots are the result of physical damage because when I zoom the black spots are actually made up of a bunch of tiny randomly sized and shaped blotches and they don't appear to be raised in anyway. However I do see some intermittent black spots that are more consistent in size and shape but if I could't see them without a macro lens shooting 1:1 and cropping in to70-80%, would black ich really be that tiny? I also noticed some stuff on his fins but to me it just looks like some of the precipitated gunk that covers the surfaces of the tank from me screwing up my salt mix before I got the fish. Thats also supported by only being on the fins that would come into contact with those surfaces but I grabbed some photos of that as well just in case.

Here are some photos, you can see one smaller black dots on one of the red rectangles on his side near the middle and one behind his eye on the bottom photo as well as the original blotches closer to his dorsal. Sorry about the dark pics, QT doesn't have a proper light and I forget where I put the fluval LED so I used a cheap cabinet light. I can brighter and sharper images if need be (once I find the light;Hilarious)

 

[ZipAdeeZoa]

@Lasse @ngoodermuth Do the photos help any?

 

[ngoodermuth]

The black dots look similar to something I’d chalked up to bacterial infection in a tang I had once. Unfortunately, did not end well for that particular tang... but his case was much worse, with black “marks” like that all over, and a brown fuzzy lump on his gills.

Since meds are off the table in your area... the best support that can be offered is clean water, nutritious foods, and low stress. If he is still eating, that is a good sign.

 

[Lasse]

I do not know if I mentioned here in this thread, but fish have a special way of handling mechanical wounds and damage. The skin and the mucus layer are the first defence system for the fish living in the primordial soup we call water. A wound could be very fatal for a water living organism – opening for all sort of hungry microorganism. Therefore – if they get a damage in the skin and mucus layer – they call out defence cells among them - macrophages. Fish harbour a special type of these defence cells – named Melano-macrophage centres. They contain melanin. These cells will enter an area of infection or damage as a part of an inflammatory process to eliminate infection agents, prevent issue damage by active radicals and contribute to tissue healing as the melanin act as an antioxidant. After the cells done its job, sometimes - melanin can be seen as a black leftover, especially if the damage will happen more than once at the same place. Look around the lips of digging cichlids as an example. It looks like that type of black spots on your fish

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ZipAdeeZoa]

The black dots look similar to something I’d chalked up to bacterial infection in a tang I had once. Unfortunately, did not end well for that particular tang... but his case was much worse, with black “marks” like that all over, and a brown fuzzy lump on his gills.

Since meds are off the table in your area... the best support that can be offered is clean water, nutritious foods, and low stress. If he is still eating, that is a good sign.

Thanks for the heads up! Also Only legally...;Locktopic I still have some meds on hand and got some prazi before it was taken off the shelfs. I really hope thats not the case though, I'm considering doing another freshwater dip to rule out black ich since I saw some black specs during his original FW dip I figured where just from the black rock I used to hold the airstone in place. I just want to stress him out to much, He's continues to eat extremely well for me. At one point I was a little worried because he appeared to lack the same gusto he had shown when I first got him but after trying a few things it seems he simply can't be bother with the small pieces he was so excited about at first and is just waiting for larger pieces;Hilarious

I do not know if I mentioned here in this thread, but fish have a special way of handling mechanical wounds and damage. The skin and the mucus layer are the first defence system for the fish living in the primordial soup we call water. A wound could be very fatal for a water living organism – opening for all sort of hungry microorganism. Therefore – if they get a damage in the skin and mucus layer – they call out defence cells among them - macrophages. Fish harbour a special type of these defence cells – named Melano-macrophage centres. They contain melanin. These cells will enter an area of infection or damage as a part of an inflammatory process to eliminate infection agents, prevent issue damage by active radicals and contribute to tissue healing as the melanin act as an antioxidant. After the cells done its job, sometimes - melanin can be seen as a black leftover, especially if the damage will happen more than once at the same place. Look around the lips of digging cichlids as an example. It looks like that type of black spots on your fish

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks! You did mention this earlier on in the thread but its just as fascinating as the first time you mentioned it! I do believe that to be the cause of the spots near the dorsal fin given their blotchy appearance but the spot behind the eye and lower on his side are much more consistent in size and shape. Would the fishes body respond to flukes the same as physical damage seeing as flukes have to bite the fish?

I think I might give the fish another FW dip when I get home today and see if any of the black specs fall off. Other than additional stress, would a second dip cause any issues?

 

[Lasse]

Is your fish - you have to do what you think is best with the observations you have and the information you got.

I do not really understand this with black spot disease (or black ich) The black spot disease I know about is a disease in fresh water and include a lot of hosts. I have never heard about a parasitic turbellarian flatworm - they are normally free swimming flatworms.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ZipAdeeZoa]

Is your fish - you have to do what you think is best with the observations you have and the information you got.

I do not really understand this with black spot disease (or black ich) The black spot disease I know about is a disease in fresh water and include a lot of hosts. I have never heard about a parasitic turbellarian flatworm - they are normally free swimming flatworms.

Sincerely Lasse

I decided to do second freshwater dip tonight and not only did no black specs fall off but Atlas maintained his colour and didn't play dead like last time. I presume that no black spots falling off confirms that its not black ich?

I'll probably wait a while yet before adding him to the DT (some worrying signs of GHA have developed in the DT and I want to get my MP10 working before I add him) but I'm becoming increasingly confident that he is good to go!

 

[Lasse]

confident that he is good to go!

That´s have also been my thinking for a while

Sincerely Lasse