First quarantine- am I ready?

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by ZipAdeeZoa, May 9, 2019.

  1. ZipAdeeZoa

    ZipAdeeZoa Active Member

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    Hello everyone!

    The store I work finally got in a plectranthias inermis and I’m hoping to pick it up today!

    Before I do that however I wanted to ask you guys to check out my QT setup and make sure I’m not missing anything keeping in mind I’m in Canada so medication availability is limited.

    Tank: 10 gallon

    Topoff: manual, at least once a day

    Filter: aqua clear 20 with only biomedia and used filter floss from the cycled display, was thinking of picking some ammonia pads just in case.

    Heater: Aqeuon preset (78) 50 watt heater

    Lid: milk crate 3/4 covered with seram wrap to limit evap, last 1/4 covered by left over screen from red sea cover held in place with
    Twist ties

    Hides: two 2” PVC elbows rinsed in rodi but I got them a month ago so I’m going to rinse them again before adding

    Monitoring: seachem ammonia alert badge added yesterday

    Oxygenation: filter raised about 2” over the water line, air pump handy in case I have to medicate

    Meds:
    General cure (1 year expired but welcome to canada:()
    Kanaplex
    Picking up some curpamine, seachem copper test kit and prazipro today and I could probably find some metro if I should have that as well, Can’t find ruby reef rally (is it legal in canada?).

    Plan: inspect the fish in store and all other fish in connected tanks, bring home, float the bag for 20 minutes to temp aclimate, fill a 1/2 measuring cup with RODI and float in the tank to match temp, remove fish from bag and do 5 minute freshwater dip with seram wrap elastic ti prevent jumping during the dip, then introduce to the tank and then leave it alone. Inspect for 20-30 minutes once a day and any unusual behaviors, spots etc are noticed take some macro photos and post them here and summon the qt the gods.

    Pics attached, let me know what you think and or what I’m missing!

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    C668E851-5DDF-4742-BCC7-855C5FCACD4C.jpeg
     

  2. ZipAdeeZoa

    ZipAdeeZoa Active Member

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    Well I got the fish! His colour seemed a little washed out when I first saw him but other than that he appears to be in good health! I decided to the freshwater dip in larger container and followed the instructions on performing a freshwater dip from Humblefish's article to the T however the fish felt differently about it. I floated the container of RODI with the air stone in the tank to adjust the temp (switched to larger container with a sizable lip that held it in place on the waters surface), un bagged the fish, placed it in the container, started the five minute timer then sat down and watched. Breathing wasn't as frantic as I expected it to be but it was consistent and the fish laid on its side for the entirety of the dip. However with 7 seconds left on the clock the plectranthias decided enough was enough and jumped into the quarantine tank. no flukes were observed during the process.

    As of writing this the fish appears to have gained some colour (it actually staring gaining colour during temp acclamation which was unexpected) and its breathing has slowed down greatly. I really though such small fish would breath much more rapidly but this is my first saltwater fish so I could be missing something. I do have the airpump handy if you guys think it's necessary to add to the QT tank. I presumed such small fishes oxygens demands (even in the lower holding capacity of saltwater) would be sufficiently met by the suspended HOB but again I could be wrong. The fish is able to maintain its position and orientation since shortly after the FW dip.

    Upon observing the other fish at the store I was only able to see one fish that had any visual signs of illness and after checking Fish diseases 101 I'm confident what I saw was Lymphocystis on a single clownfish. I confirmed that all the tanks I checked where on the same sump so the fish has certainly been exposed to it but from what I've read I shouldn't be overly concerned. I suppose the 30 day clock starts now (again unless I'm missing something).
     
  3. Jmas4

    Jmas4 Well-Known Member Build Thread Contributor

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    You seem more prepared than most people. lol. I'm glad you took your time to research and understand what you are doing. Sadly I cant help with medications types because i'm not from Canada. Metro would be great to have on hand along with focus if you can get that.
    Good Luck and Happy Reefing
     
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  4. Paul Sands

    Paul Sands Member

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    Congrats on such an awesome quarantine set-up. You should be commended for being so responsible.

    Assuming you have some ammonia tests? With a newly set-up tank you’ll probably want to test ammonia daily. It’s good to have some prime on hand as well in case ammonia gets out of control.

    Are you planning to treat or just observe?
     
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  5. ngoodermuth

    ngoodermuth Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Reef Tank 365 Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Is there a powerhead in there? If not, I’d suggest that... aimed at the surface. Having an air-stone too, is a good idea as well.

    Also, PVC elbows make good hiding spots to reduce the stress of feeling “exposed”. I’d add several.

    Edit. Just saw you mentioned the PVC elbows already. I’d go ahead and put the air pump in now, and I’d still recommend a small powerhead. Especially if the plan is to treat with meds as needed or prophylactically.
     
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  6. ZipAdeeZoa

    ZipAdeeZoa Active Member

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    Thanks! I certainly try to do as much research as possible, I know the animal has been through a lot of stress just to get to me and I learnt early on in animal keeping that winging it is a great way to stress out the animal and the keeper! I believe I can still get focus but I'm pretty sure metro is N/A in the great white north... Sadly I definitely don't work at a store that has a stockpile of the meds we had to pull off the shelves... I'll see what I can't do...
    Thanks! Informed decisions are the only ones that should be made when you're deciding on the behalf of a living thing. I was going to say "especially one that gets no say in the matter" but then I remembered by jumping out of the freshwater dip I suppose my fish has had more say in in the matter than most!

    I just realized I left out most of this information in my first post, my apologies! The QT Tank was set up on March 2nd and seeded with aqueon ceramic rings and a few chunks of the live rock rubble I used to start the cycle in my DT back in late December. I've also been placing the spent filter floss into the QT tanks filter in hopes of providing organics for beneficial bacteria and possibly some pods for the fish to snack on (although as of yet I've only seen pods in the DT). I've been doing one 2 gallon water change every 2-3 weeks while I've been waiting for the store to locate the plectranthias and did another waterchange the 8th. I have a net, siphon and bucket all specific to the QT tank and have them tucked away so do I don't mix them up. I do plan on eventually using that bucket on the DT but only to siphon out the old water and only after I vigorously disinfect it.

    I also have seachem ammonia alert badge in case I need to monitor ammonia and treat with cupramine (but also just to monitor in general) and I bought some cut to size ammonia removal pad yesterday just to have on hand in case I see any numbers. Do you think I should supplement the badge with daily ammonia testing? I do have the red sea ammonia test kit on hand and I certainly could add that to the daily regiment if you think its best practice. I also have prime on hand since its what I use as conditioner for my FW set ups.

    I am planning on just doing 30 days of observation and pursuing treatment on a as needed basis. I realize this is a rather controversial approach to quarantine but after all the reading I've done combined with the fact that fish medications are going the way of the of the Dodo up here it seems like focusing on limiting stress, a well balanced diet and stable environment to properly maintain the fishes immune system seems to likely be the future of fish keeping (or the present in Canada). With that said I will not hesitate to treat an illness if it arises using the recommended medications as long as I have access to them.
     
  7. ZipAdeeZoa

    ZipAdeeZoa Active Member

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    Thanks!

    At the moment there isn't a powerhead in the tank but I do have a small one I could add as well as an airpump, my concern with adding an air pump is the spray of salt creep that it would generate, am I overthinking that or will I need to wipe down the cover with RODI water daily? I could add a small rock to the middle of the seram wrap so that a large percentage of the sprayed water could drop back down into the tank, does that sound like a ok an idea?

    No worries, I'll post some pictures of the what the tank currently looks like to avoid further confusion. I may need to remove 2 of the 3 PVC elbow and use an elastic band and a rock to hold them in place if I add the power head, I had to that with one of them last night because it just wouldn't sink and the other are still moving slightly just from the output of the filter.

    Also in case anyone is wondering everything is thoroughly rinsed with RODI water before being added to the tank (elastics, rocks, my hands etc).
     
  8. ngoodermuth

    ngoodermuth Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Reef Tank 365 Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Aeration is very important in QT, and often overlooked, especially when meds are used.

    I don’t generally “cover” my QTs... the mesh + eggcrate you have should be sufficient for jumpers. Other than that, I’d leave it open and not covered with plastic to maximize O2 exchange at the surface.

    The airpump shouldn’t cause too much spray at the surface that it becomes problematic. Though, unless you are mixing meds a single powerhead disturbing the surface should work just fine.

    And evaporation can be managed with daily top-off using RO/DI. I draw a line with a sharpie on my QT to make it easier to observe evaporation.
     
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  9. ZipAdeeZoa

    ZipAdeeZoa Active Member

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    Thanks!

    Unfortunately I believe the plectranthias is small enough to fit through the egg crate on its own so if I do remove the seram wrap I'll twist tie more mesh around the entirety of cover. I'm currently using that powerhead to mix the water for my DT but once its done that I'll designate it for the QT until its properly sterilized. I do have three separate lines in dry erase marking the water line spread around the tank incase I brush one off but sharpie certainly makes much more sense;Hilarious

    Being new to saltwater I still don't really have good sense of how much evaporation can take place before I see a swing in salinity and I know that something I really have to avoid although I knew it would limit gas exchange I figured it made more sense to prioritize salinity stability. With the current lid I'm getting roughly 1/4 inch evap daily, should I be aiming for more than that? Also While manually topping off that amount by pouring the RODI into the impeller chamber of the HOB I spread out raising the 1/4 inch by about 20-30 second of pouring in 2-3 intervals to avoid drastic change. I fairly certain I'm being overly cautious with this but I scared myself with the importance of stability to avoid slacking down the road (so far so good;Hilarious). If I do let it evaporate more what amount should I allow and whatever that amount is, over how long of a duration should I add the top off water to avoid swings in salinity?

    Apologies @ngoodermuth for taking up so much of your time with what is most likely just paranoia but as mentioned before this is my first saltwater tank and my first saltwater fish so I am very far outside of my comfort zone:confused:
     
  10. ngoodermuth

    ngoodermuth Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Reef Tank 365 Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor

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    No apologies needed! Better to be overly cautious than not enough ;)

    In a 10-gallon tank, salinity can and will change pretty quickly with evaporation. I don't think you need to "aim" for a certain level of evaporation, meaning I wouldn't let it go longer than a day just because it is only 1/4 below the line. But, unless you're in a very dry climate... 1-2 times daily top-off is generally fine. If you are worried, you can also set-up an auto-top off. But, personally unless I'm going to be away for several days I generally just manually top-off when I notice it's below the line.

    Regarding ammonia, Prime is OK to use without copper... but do NOT DOSE PRIME WITH COPPER PRESENT. It will undoubtedly kill your fish. Also, remember Prime is a band-aid in that it's bind to ammonia is temporary... and should be followed with a water change, or continually dosed. I personally prefer bio-spira or similar bacteria in a bottle products. They work well, and wont react with medications. It's good to seed the tank with a bottle, and keep an extra on hand for emergencies. You should also be prepared for at least 25-50% water change in your QT at any given time, as a back-up.
     
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  11. ZipAdeeZoa

    ZipAdeeZoa Active Member

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    Thanks! I always have 2 gallons of RODI water handy just in case and is something did happen I do have a contingency plan in place (its not pretty but over all I'm confident the fish would survive). Thank you for the heads up about the prime and copper, I was aware that they can not be mixed but like you said better safe than sorry!

    Just to clarify, If I'm currently dealing with approx 1/4 of inch of evap would it be a bad idea to remove a wrapped portion of the cover and angle a powerhead to the surface? My DT has an ATO and a full screen lid and the ato comes on about 5 times a day, I don't think I could keep up with that amount manually.
     
  12. ZipAdeeZoa

    ZipAdeeZoa Active Member

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    Well good news and not so good news- the good news is the fish seems to be settling in and even ate a few pieces of omega enriched brineshrimp last night which I’m very excited about!

    The not so good news is that I noticed that “Atlas” seems to be having white poops that could suggest intestinal parasites, if this is the case I can pick up some focus and not... pick up some metro... tomorrow from work. First photo shows the abnormal stool beside the fish on the black PVC, the rest are of the QT set up and Atlas being cute. A1E99028-86D3-46B5-A66B-35C38BA4EB06.jpeg 393FCEC3-5D84-4E57-A955-48AE0536B65C.jpeg 47176059-AB3D-4AAE-8DCA-6CD1A90A93DF.jpeg 7FAE8829-7EA5-4B68-873F-E04C18ABDE93.jpeg 517717F3-2F1F-4B4D-BB6F-3AC08BD0A548.jpeg EE24BD67-4557-4F9A-8C16-D9A8C52DC5B6.jpeg
     
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  13. Mjrenz

    Mjrenz Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    I have some good news for you; you mentioned in your first post that you have general cure, you can use that and the focus to treat internal parasites
    https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/praziquantel.247598/
     
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  14. Tastee

    Tastee Active Member

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    I made my own ATO for my QT using a float valve kit and a recycled food container (in my case a 1.8L soy sauce container). It was pretty simple to put together and works a treat.

    [​IMG]

    Here is the float valve kit I used - you should have no trouble sourcing an equivalent one in your market.

    https://www.guppysaquariumproducts.com.au/auto-top-up-system.html
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
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  15. Lasse

    Lasse Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    IMO - white pop is not always a sign of internal parasites (and not white pop is not a sign of that the fish is without internal parasites) The thin white pop can be showed when the fish has been starved for a certain time. This is often the case when fish is newly imported. Probably it is the intestine mucus that is irritated and leave the fish. Good shipping routine include a starvation period of around 2-3 days prior a long shipping. My experiences say that if the fish eat – it will recover from this white pop by itself. What I see from the pictures – the stomach is a little inwards, but the fish looks as it should at the shoulders. This indicate starvation. Fish with prolonged period with intestinal parasites have their “shoulders” like razors. Fish will not die very fast by intestinal parasites and you have time to observe. If the fish start to eat well – its not any problems as long as it is gaining body weight and get a good shape of the belly. However – do not overfeed in the beginning. Your food is excellent as a start.

    However – you should know that this fish is not a gluttonous fish. They are shy and slow eaters, just lying around and observe. It is very seldom I see my two individuals (they have been with me for 2.5 years) picking anything. I often wonder – what in heck are they eating?

    If you feed with newly hatched brine shrimps – try to get it down to the fish. I have often used a 10 ml syringe and an air tube in order to get the food down to the fish. If you can - have the room darker than the aquaria, feed the fish and step backwards and observe if it is eating. But the fish is shy, very shy and easy to stress in the beginning.

    I´m not in the situation that I can advise you in doing that or that because I can´t observe the fish on a continuous base. How to act must be your own decision – the text above is for your information only.

    I would not use the expired general cure - I do not know the content - but general indicate that could content formalin. Old formalin can be converted to paraformaldehyde and that’s very toxic, very toxic for fish. One sign of paraformaldehyde is precipitation on the bottom.

    Sincerely Lasse
     
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  16. Mjrenz

    Mjrenz Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    General cure doesn't have formalin, it's a powder in foil packets and contains sodium chloride, metronidazole, praziquental, and silica amorphous. I'm not an expert on it but I would think the only concern would be with potency
     
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  17. Lasse

    Lasse Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Thank´s for the clarification- but a question - would you use experied medicines for your self or for your children? There is a reason why there is a date.

    Sincerely Lasse
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
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  18. Mjrenz

    Mjrenz Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    I wouldn't, unless it was my only option and I was sure the only risk was reduced potency and not the possibility of poisoning.

    I completly agree with you that expired medication should be discarded and I wasn't aware of the danger of old formalin until I read your post.
     
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  19. Lasse

    Lasse Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Leader Reef Tank 365 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Formalin is old school in fish farming and the danger of using it was well known in that business. Because of health problem is not used so much anymore and the knowledge of it slowly disapaer when the old folks die of.

    Sincerely Lasse
     
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  20. Mjrenz

    Mjrenz Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

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    My kids consider me old, and now I know too :)
     
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