Fish immune to disease?

[MnFish1]

Part of the confusion exists because of posts like the one I quoted below where you state your fish only die of old age. Other posts on the various forums state your fish never die from ich etc. maybe these statements are said tongue in cheek and you really mean “your old fish” or “most” but many people read the word “all” and assume all the fish in your tank, even new fish, are immune to ich or will fight it off. I’ve followed enough of your posts on the various forums over the years to know that some of your fish do indeed die from these parasites but you never have a total tank wipeout like many new reefers experience.

This is my point - but you said it much more concisely. When I read "all" - I take it for what was said "all" - which to my thinking is impossible. I personally (perhaps I'm stupid) - don't get terms like 'immune tank' because there is no such thing that makes sense.

 

[MnFish1]

No one said there is no deaths. What was said many times is that "No other fish die from the disease the new fish brought in"

I remember you saying how you put fish 'covered in parasites' into your tank and they did fine. Others talk about putting fish into their tank with CI, and its gone in a day or 2. Those anecdotes scientifically do not make any sense.

It is to me and it would also be to a scientist. But even if it were not, it is a much better testament than 500 tanks that crash in 2 or 3 years. A 50 year old tank "Implies" that fish can become immune, or be extremely lucky for half a century.

Well - I'm a scientist. And - I disagree. Having a 50 year old tank does not mean you have an 'immune tank'. It means you have an old tank - and you worked hard on it. (which is why I said earlier - that its testimony to you as an aquarist - which I meant as a compliment)

I don't know why either because it is so simple. But there is as you said one fifty year old tank and no 50 year old quarantined tanks. That implies something else doesn't it?

It implies to me that most people don't keep tanks for 50 years.

Of course you are missing the whole point as most people do. It is not just foregoing quarantine and drugs. That in itself does not make a natural tank and that in a nutshell is why people have so many disease problems.

The fact is, many people have successful tanks. They do not have access to sea water, etc. I agree - feeding fish, lowering stress etc are all important. Which point am I missing? My point is that most of your comments relate to quarantine - and its negative effects. I do not think that giving a fish prazipro is going to cause it long-term problems. I do not think that doing TTM is going to hurt a fish long-term. I do not think 'spawning' is a big deal - lots of people don't have 2 fish of the same type. If you have 2 - they will spawn. There is a lot of information out there - as @Lasse said about the cryptocaryon vaccine - not being effective because it is strain specific.

 

[Maritimer]

There is really no good data on how long immunity lasts for cryptocaryon. The study you cited only lasted 6 months, and at 6 months there was still a large percentage of immune fish. So - Cryptokaryon immunity may last for ever - or it may last for 6 months.

Which has me wondering ... How long does it take for cryptocaryon resistance to develop?
Does the fish have to be cured of a case of crypto before the resistance takes hold, or can the resistance take effect during an ongoing infestation?
I'll include a couple of photos of the tangs in the tank ... the powderblue's right pectoral fin (the one you see in the photo) is her worst. She seems to be mostly stable, or possibly in _very_ slow decline:

And her chocolate / mimic tankmate, a long-term resident and apparently unaffected. I suppose her resistance has already kicked in:

~Bruce

 

[atoll]

I meant fish sick from parasites (or anything else). Of course not every fish with parasites gets 'sick'. The point was that its impossible to say 'how many' die from parasites - because they are likely eaten before they die. They (I would guess) do not lay down on the bottom of the sand waiting for a scientist to count them. I fully agree - fish can survive parasites. They develop immunity that lasts for a time. The difference here is that some are saying 'QT causes 'suffering' for a fish', or QT 'destroys the immune system', etc etc. Frankly, I think that people that keep 'a natural tank' care as much about their fish than people that quarantine. I don't see the animosity. I also do not see the logic - much like @Brandon 429 mentioned earlier for many of the claims. As I've said before (Many times) - To me there are pieces to the puzzle missing. So - my comments relate to trying to figure out what those pieces might be - as compared to just having 'a debate'.

If I put a fish in my tank with itch and I have like I have said with Royal grammas and within 24/36 hours they are gone from the fish then we agree it survived. No other fish in the tank showed any signs of the itch then why would fish on the reef not do the same? Our answer to that is that fish just don't get infected and die of the parasite. The odd fish might get the odd itch but it will do the fish no harm and in fact might do it good in helping to reinforce it's resistance to it.

 

[Paul B]

There is really no good data on how long immunity lasts for cryptocaryon. The study you cited only lasted 6 months, and at 6 months there was still a large percentage of immune fish. So - Cryptokaryon immunity may last for ever - or it may last for 6 months.

It doesn't matter as long as some of those parasites are living with the fish like they are supposed to.

But important is also to understand that immunity isn't absolute and only as good as the fish's overall health and "happiness".

Exactly which is why I advocate the diet I mentioned 1,000 times and the aquascape like I also keep mentioning

The implication seems to be that having a healthy natural tank and not medicating fish beforehand means that newly introduced fish will thrive. Or at least that’s what many readers infer.

No, that is not the implication. Newly introduced fish can and do die like in any tank. They may have a better chance in a natural tank than a bare quarantine tank, but they can still die.

I personally (perhaps I'm stupid) - don't get terms like 'immune tank' because there is no such thing that makes sense.

Mine is.

I remember you saying how you put fish 'covered in parasites' into your tank and they did fine.

Most times they do and I posted that numerous times over decades

Well - I'm a scientist.

Are you a fish scientist?

The fact is, many people have successful tanks. They do not have access to sea water, etc.

I only live near the sea for the last 3 years. For the first 47 years of my tanks life I only used a very little real salt water.

I do not think that giving a fish prazipro is going to cause it long-term problems. I do not think that doing TTM is going to hurt a fish long-term. I do not think 'spawning' is a big deal - lots of people don't have 2 fish of the same type. If you have 2 - they will spawn. There is a lot of information out there - as @Lasse said about the cryptocaryon vaccine - not being effective because it is strain specific.

I disagree with all of this. All female fish in the sea fill with eggs, male or not.



Remember, we don't need anyone to use our system. We don't care. Our tanks are successful and immune. If you like a different way, do that.

I have been answering these silly questions since they invented computers and it is always the same thing.

Now I am going to go and plant my tomatoes, I don't know if they are immune.

 

[Lasse]

I do not think that giving a fish prazipro is going to cause it long-term problems.

Have you any investigations showing this. I have seen articles that claim that the breakdown process is done in the MFO system and that metabolites of the drug can be seen as bioaccumulating compounds. In EU - Praziquantel is not allowed in fish farming for human consumption - as I remember it. I have also seen that the compound will be biological broken down - probably by bacteria - in aquarium. Nothing say anything of metabolites here. Please see this article

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

If I put a fish in my tank with itch and I have like I have said with Royal grammas and within 24/36 hours they are gone from the fish then we agree it survived. No other fish in the tank showed any signs of the itch then why would fish on the reef not do the same? Our answer to that is that fish just don't get infected and die of the parasite.

I would say - based on the 'life cycle' that after 24-36 hours you could say they 'survived' but I don't think you can say they are cured (because as you know, CI falls off the fish all the time). Second. If you put a fish with CI in your tank - I don't quite understand what you could do in 24-36 hours that would make an overall difference in survival.

 

[MnFish1]

Have you any investigations showing this. I have seen articles that claim that the breakdown process is done in the MFO system and that metabolites of the drug can be seen as bioaccumulating compounds. In EU - Praziquantel is not allowed in fish farming for human consumption - as I remember it. I have also seen that the compound will be biological broken down - probably by bacteria - in aquarium. Nothing say anything of metabolites here. Please see this article

Sincerely Lasse

The article was interesting. It suggested that after oral and a high concentration bath - that there was no/little evidence that prazipro remains concentrated in the fish. So I guess your article kind of proved what I suggested?

My point was not to pick 'prazipro', my point was that if a fish has a disease, flukes, etc, the risk of the treatment should be less than the risk of the disease. As I've said before I do not believe in prophylactically treating fish - but I buy my fish only from sources that are as close to disease free as possible. I haven't had a disease or fish death for over 5 years.

As I've also said before - I don't particularly believe there is any magic in either method. If I had my pick, there would be mandates in the US, that when shipped or sold in the US are 'disease free'. I.e. that any QT/treatment, etc would be done when they arrive here in the US by professionals, as compared to in individual's homes. There are so many places where errors can creep into the process that I think that kills a lot of fish.

Likewise - MOST people here do not quarantine - and do not have problems and whether they use a 'natural' method - or a FOWLR tank - or a tank with dead rock, they do fine.

 

[MnFish1]

No, that is not the implication. Newly introduced fish can and do die like in any tank. They may have a better chance in a natural tank than a bare quarantine tank, but they can still die.

@Paul B, Then this one of the 'missing pieces of the puzzle' I was asking for. I believe that many people read your, @Lasse 's and @atoll 's posts and assume that you are saying that by some process, even diseased fish added to the tank do not die.

When you say 'All fish in my tank die of old age', do you really mean 'all fish in my tank that survive the initial transport, acclimation, etc process 'die of old age'? I would suggest that that is the course of events in most tanks. I know you don't like tangs particularly but how many of your tangs lived to be 40 years old (which is their natural life-span)?

 

[atoll]

I would say - based on the 'life cycle' that after 24-36 hours you could say they 'survived' but I don't think you can say they are cured (because as you know, CI falls off the fish all the time). Second. If you put a fish with CI in your tank - I don't quite understand what you could do in 24-36 hours that would make an overall difference in survival.

Sorry but you seem to miss my point completely. Not only do the spots fall of the infected fish which as you know means the cysts drop to the bottom where they release hundreds of new spores to infect fish in fish that arent immune tanks. Not only do those fish not get reinfected none of the existing fish get infected either, they appear to be immune to the newly introduced itch. If you have another theory then let's hear it as it's the best I can come up with.
BTW I have fish that should all show itch like Tangs,Royal grammas, fireball Angel's and blue damsels among others. All these fish are known to be suseptical to itch ....well in none immune tanks anyway.

 

[atoll]

Likewise - MOST people here do not quarantine - and do not have problems and whether they use a 'natural' method - or a FOWLR tank - or a tank with dead rock, they do fine.

Hmmm, I would suggest over a few year period that most people who do not QT and don't practice our methods do experience problems with one disease or another. Many you just won't read. The disease forum one of the most used forums on here.
I try and keep away as there are so many horror stories.
I would also suggest one of the most common reasons for people packing the hobby in is due to people having major and continuing issues with diseases and fish deaths attributed to them.

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry but you seem to miss my point completely. Not only do the spots fall of the infected fish which as you know means the cysts drop to the bottom where they release hundreds of new spores to infect fish in fish that arent immune tanks. Not only do those fish not get reinfected none of the existing fish get infected either, they appear to be immune to the newly introduced itch. If you have another theory then let's hear it as it's the best I can come up with.
BTW I have fish that should all show itch like Tangs,Royal grammas, fireball Angel's and blue damsels among others. All these fish are known to be suseptical to itch ....well in none immune tanks anyway.

I have had many tanks with CI in the past. You're absolutely correct, as I've said previously, many fish survive and do fine. Occasionally popping up with a spot or two over months and months. The presumption would be that they have developed immunity - or the original strain weakens over time.

I think (Unless you have done it hundreds of times) - that your experience with the Royal Grammas which were infected with CI - which dropped off in 24-36 hours and did not recur was 'chance'. In other words - if you took 100 royal gramma with CI, in a tank x percent would survive.

But - you wanted my opinion - My feeling is that one of the main issues with CI/etc in our tanks is stocking density, and adding fish to a system more quickly than it can handle. My guess is the CI fell off your royal grammas - and then 'attacked' other fish that were relatively immune - and thus there wasn't enough stocking density/concentration to cause significant reinfection/magnification of the CI.

I do not think feeding bacteria or live vs dry vs frozen foods plays a significant role in maintaining immunity to CI. I.e any varied diet will work.

I wonder - have you ever added a fish with velvet to your tank? I guess I had what I would call a 'natural' tank. fish, etc getting along very rare spots but no signs of illness. I decided to order a fish from online. It arrived. (I did not QT) - I added it to the tank - within 4-6 days all of the fish in the tank were dead (covered with velvet). I just dont see a scientific way that Specific immunity (as compared to non-specific - (slime coat, etc) immunity can develop to specific parasites. I do see how feeding a varied healthy diet will improve non-specific immunity.

 

[Mark Gray]

I have never had a QT tank, I do not have time or room for them. I believe get your fish heathy and then the only fish you must worry about is the new one coming in.

 

[MnFish1]

Hmmm, I would suggest over a few year period that most people who do not QT and don't practice our methods do experience problems with one disease or another. Many you just won't read. The disease forum one of the most used forums on here.
I try and keep away as there are so many horror stories.
I would also suggest one of the most common reasons for people packing the hobby in is due to people having major and continuing issues with diseases and fish deaths attributed to them.

I don't know about 'the most common' reason for quitting. But I'm sure its possible. The shear number of people who do not QT here is actually surprising to me. I don't quite know what it is, but as said previously, to me there has to be a missing piece.

 

[Mark Gray]

I don't know about 'the most common' reason for quitting. But I'm sure its possible. The shear number of people who do not QT here is actually surprising to me. I don't quite know what it is, but as said previously, to me there has to be a missing piece.

I think it's a few things, I responded to a page about culturing Phyto plankton, they all were keeping it sterile, I use old tank water Mercer fertilizer and a light grow thick green water. They all said don't you have other thing growing in there, yeah I do but it's easy and works have huge pods in the fuge. I think keeping as much bacteria in they system is important, the ocean is not clean

 

[atoll]

I have had many tanks with CI in the past. You're absolutely correct, as I've said previously, many fish survive and do fine. Occasionally popping up with a spot or two over months and months. The presumption would be that they have developed immunity - or the original strain weakens over time.

I think (Unless you have done it hundreds of times) - that your experience with the Royal Grammas which were infected with CI - which dropped off in 24-36 hours and did not recur was 'chance'. In other words - if you took 100 royal gramma with CI, in a tank x percent would survive.

But - you wanted my opinion - My feeling is that one of the main issues with CI/etc in our tanks is stocking density, and adding fish to a system more quickly than it can handle. My guess is the CI fell off your royal grammas - and then 'attacked' other fish that were relatively immune - and thus there wasn't enough stocking density/concentration to cause significant reinfection/magnification of the CI.

I do not think feeding bacteria or live vs dry vs frozen foods plays a significant role in maintaining immunity to CI. I.e any varied diet will work.

I wonder - have you ever added a fish with velvet to your tank? I guess I had what I would call a 'natural' tank. fish, etc getting along very rare spots but no signs of illness. I decided to order a fish from online. It arrived. (I did not QT) - I added it to the tank - within 4-6 days all of the fish in the tank were dead (covered with velvet). I just dont see a scientific way that Specific immunity (as compared to non-specific - (slime coat, etc) immunity can develop to specific parasites. I do see how feeding a varied healthy diet will improve non-specific immunity.

My stocking density has always been on the high side, I currently have
2 Tangs
3 dwarf angels
7 damsels
2 blennies
2 royal grammas
2 yellow wrasse
2 clowns
2 cleaner wrasse only put in 6 weeks ago.
1 black wrasse, I did buy 2 but one disappeared a few days after introduction, I never found the body.
1 Copperband.
In a 130 gallon once sump.
I make that 24 fish in total.
I have had many Royal grammas over the years in fact I once had 4 in one tank, if you know about RGs they are itch magnets and so are many of my fish...apparently but not in my tank. Most broke out in itch soon after introduction, scratched against the sand and rocks but within 36 hours the spots had gone never to reappear.

In my 39 years keeping numerous tanks I have bought fish from far and wide and many that people said you should stay away from as their fish always bring in itch.
I am 100% certain as I could be brought all manner of diseases into my tanks given the wide variety of LFSs I have bought from and never have I QTd them.

 

[Mark Gray]

My stocking density has always been on the high side, I currently have
2 Tangs
3 dwarf angels
7 damsels
2 blennies
2 royal grammas
2 yellow wrasse
2 clowns
2 cleaner wrasse only put in 6 weeks ago.
1 black wrasse, I did buy 2 but one disappeared a few days after introduction, I never found the body.
1 Copperband.
In a 130 gallon once sump.
I make that 24 fish in total.
I have had many Royal grammas over the years in fact I once had 4 in one tank, if you know about RGs they are itch magnets and so are many of my fish...apparently but not in my tank. Most broke out in itch soon after introduction, scratched against the sand and rocks but within 36 hours the spots had gone never to reappear.

In my 39 years keeping numerous tanks I have bought fish from far and wide and many that people said you should stay away from as their fish always bring in itch.
I am 100% certain as I could be brought all manner of diseases into my tanks given the wide variety of LFSs I have bought from and never have I QTd them.

I have tried two Royal grammas before but one always seems to kill the other, have one now

 

[MnFish1]

My stocking density has always been on the high side, I currently have
2 Tangs
3 dwarf angels
7 damsels
2 blennies
2 royal grammas
2 yellow wrasse
2 clowns
2 cleaner wrasse only put in 6 weeks ago.
1 black wrasse, I did buy 2 but one disappeared a few days after introduction, I never found the body.
1 Copperband.
In a 130 gallon once sump.
I make that 24 fish in total.
I have had many Royal grammas over the years in fact I once had 4 in one tank, if you know about RGs they are itch magnets and so are many of my fish...apparently but not in my tank. Most broke out in itch soon after introduction, scratched against the sand and rocks but within 36 hours the spots had gone never to reappear.

In my 39 years keeping numerous tanks I have bought fish from far and wide and many that people said you should stay away from as their fish always bring in itch.
I am 100% certain as I could be brought all manner of diseases into my tanks given the wide variety of LFSs I have bought from and never have I QTd them.

I think thats a relatively low stocking density considering the size of the tank, and the size of the fish (except the tangs). Also - just thought of this - the smaller the fish, the smaller the CI burden throughout the tank.

I meant to say this earlier - to me a lot of people quit when they have some huge die off - whether coral or fish, whether from disease or a malfunction. It is just devastating as read in multiple posts.

 

[Lasse]

. So I guess your article kind of proved what I suggested?

That´s how must people will understand that article - but - it is always a but - these articles only deal with the original substances and knowing that MFO is involved in fish and that the breakdown in water probably are done by bacteria rise the question of metabolites. As an example - metallic mercury is not of concern for us but when it comes out in nature - bacteria convert it into Methylmercury that can be bioaccumulated. If you try to search for metallic mercury in sediment - you can think it is of no concern because it is not there - but its metabolite is - and it is deadly for us.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[atoll]

I think thats a relatively low stocking density considering the size of the tank, and the size of the fish (except the tangs). Also - just thought of this - the smaller the fish, the smaller the CI burden throughout the tank.

I meant to say this earlier - to me a lot of people quit when they have some huge die off - whether coral or fish, whether from disease or a malfunction. It is just devastating as read in multiple posts.

24x an average of say 3" = 72" of fish in 130 gallons and you think that's low density. I doubt people would agree with you there but if you think so.