Fish immune to disease?

ThRoewer

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Agree with this but - IMO - its good to do WC in the end of the QT time with DT water. Not only for disease but also in order to get the same smell. IMO - it will stop much of the normal bulling that+s happens with newcomers.

Sincerely Lasse
Of course! All quarantine tank water changes are made with water from the display.
 

MnFish1

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Lasse my issue has always been that if you posted a thread where someone wanted to move tanks to a new house, we could do that and I would not hesitate to post the recommended procedure and I’d stick around for the outcome.


but you guys won’t do that in the help threads, you only post about your own tanks. I know you three have powerful methods but instead of having others read your tank and try to assemble it’s best features, you all could post in their thread the non qt recommends using the tools they have at their disposal

I know you understand that clearly for sure


the links I posted need help. Pros need to work some and link them here we already know you guys’ home reefs are best in class. Show us how others can step up using your methods, pick a new disease post today that will be entered, and work it before Jay fixes it using the zoo way


dont use any old threads make a new response linked to a help request thread


if someone wants to remove their sandbed or move homes we are already 100% sure that will turn out fine, I know fish disease isnt that finite but then again just a few years ago removing sandbeds was impossible, it would harm the nitrification.

you guys need to begin the journey of win some lose some live time. In other people’s threads, see what patterns you can hone out it would change the hobby. I agree qt causes loses, we need a better way but so far all work threads will be met with qt advice because that’s the best way we have in 2021


work thread adventures, in other people’s posts not ones you originate, are how you change that
I misread what you meant here at first @brandon429 . Upon re-reading it, I agree. What do people using 'natural' methods do when the get a NEW fish that ends up being sick. Lets say in @Lasse's refugium? Would you treat it @atoll, @Lasse?
 

brandon429

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Paul gave some great advice in the first help thread posted about blending that reefer’s dry rock start with some aged quality rock, Paul pointed out how unadapting it is for fish to be placed in a totally white, barren system compared to nature.

add to that a junk food diet, makes a pretty good case for what to reverse for reefers wanting fish in a new start system without a long wait


we need to get repeating work threads now for folks using kp aquatics rock, tbs or gulf of rocks who skip quarantine


and they need to be feeding well, I believe in that as well. Now it needs to be ran through patterns to see if valid, a good start can be made with these mailed rock tanks.

getting everyone who posts in no QT studies to incorporate food preps for the reef vs buy from a frozen pack or from a box will be hard. Without that, nothing is being tested. We need to assemble aquarists who believe the same power can be had for reef tanks on pro diets just as humans benefit from a pro diet.

we know a pro human diet takes acquisition prep and storage work, daily just about, it seems so will feeding a reef correctly.

most keepers will skip this phase and try and get healthy on gravy, figuratively.
 

MnFish1

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Paul gave some great advice in the first help thread posted about blending that reefer’s dry rock start with some aged quality rock, Paul pointed out how unadapting it is for fish to be placed in a totally white, barren system compared to nature.

add to that a junk food diet, makes a pretty good case for what to reverse for reefers wanting fish in a new start system without a long wait


we need to get repeating work threads now for folks using kp aquatics rock, tbs or gulf of rocks who skip quarantine


and they need to be feeding well, I believe in that as well. Now it needs to be ran through patterns to see if valid, a good start can be made with these mailed rock tanks.

getting everyone who posts in no QT studies to incorporate food preps for the reef vs buy from a frozen pack or from a box will be hard. Without that, nothing is being tested. We need to assemble aquarists who believe the same power can be had for reef tanks on pro diets just as humans benefit from a pro diet.

we know a pro human diet takes acquisition prep and storage work, daily just about, it seems so will feeding a reef correctly.

most keepers will skip this phase and try and get healthy on gravy, figuratively.
To me the problem with what you're asking for is that anyone thats posts I have this tank for 10 years - it still isn't 50 or 40 years. Right? The other problem is unless you're taking multiple fish - and taking them from the same sources and comparing longevity with QT and without, there is no way to know if they are equivalent or if one is 'better or worse'. To me the empiric evidence/andecdote is on both sides. 1) most people don't QT on this site and seem to do OK, and 2) People that do QT correctly (with or without medication) seem to do well.
 
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brandon429

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I’d accept any delay over the current timeframe of skip qt, lose 80% of your fish within eight mos as a legit pattern.

that’s my own assessment from the bazillion bottle bac white rock cycles anyway


how else are we going to test their maturation approach vs qt
 

ThRoewer

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Curious - what do you do during your 'quarantine' if a fish comes down with an illness?
Then the fish will be treated with the appropriate measures:
Tank transfers against Cryptocaryon,
Furan 2 or other antibiotics against fin rot and other bacterial infections,
Formalin against Brooklynella,
...
Only thing I never treat is Lympocystis. It's a virus and usually a fish will get over it in decent water conditions.
 

MnFish1

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I’d accept any delay over the current timeframe of skip qt, lose 80% of your fish within eight mos as a legit pattern.

that’s my own assessment from the bazillion bottle bac white rock cycles anyway


how else are we going to test their maturation approach vs qt
My guess is that this 'study' has already been done in a scientific way. Thats the reason quarantines programs were started and are active in every zoo and aquarium I'm aware of. I guess I'm of the same opinion with using bottled bacteria. It works - with or without fish - or it wouldn't be sold (unless its expired, etc).
 
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MnFish1

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Then the fish will be treated with the appropriate measures:
Tank transfers against Cryptocaryon,
Furan 2 or other antibiotics against fin rot and other bacterial infections,
Formalin against Brooklynella,
...
Only thing I never treat is Lympocystis. It's a virus and usually a fish will get over it in decent water conditions.
How often would you say (when you do observation QT) - do you estimate that you need to 'treat' something. My experience would be 'not often'
 

ThRoewer

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How often would you say (when you do observation QT) - do you estimate that you need to 'treat' something. My experience would be 'not often'
Depends on the fish family and species.
- freshly imported Marine Bettas almost always come down with some form of fin rot. Whether it needs to be treated depends on how it progresses. I had horrible losses with Calloplesiops argus from Indonesia that came with some flesh-eating infections. My suspicion is that they had compromised/destroyed immune systems due to being caught with cyanide. I lost 6 out of 8 that way, one that came from Diver's Den in such a rough shape that it didn't make it through the first night (see here and here). Just out of an abundance of caution I now give Furan 2 at the first sign of fin rot.
- Pipefish, aside from usually arriving emaciated, also often suffer from bacterial issues that may or may not require treatment. Those I not only keep separated for quarantine purposes but also to be able to fatten them up first with Tigriopus (I have a 600 liter outdoors culture of those).
- Amphiprion species occasionally need a formalin dip against Brooklynella.
- most other fish go through the 8 weeks without any issues. I just quarantined 2 pairs of dartfish and a single without incident.

One thing to consider is that quarantine is not just for disease prevention but also to condition fish for tank-life or nurse them back to health after the ordeals they went through on their way to us. Just tossing them into a tank with well established fish may be a death sentence as fish are not always welcoming new arrivals. I had some new additions killed so fast that I couldn't intervene fast enough.
 
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MnFish1

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Depends on the fish family and species.
- freshly imported Marine Bettas almost always come down with some form of fin rot. Whether it needs to be treated depends on how it progresses. I had horrible losses with Calloplesiops argus from Indonesia that came with some flesh-eating infections. My suspicion is that they had compromised/destroyed immune systems due to being caught with cyanide. I lost 6 out of 8 that way, one that came from Diver's Den in such a rough shape that it didn't make it through the first night (see here and here). Just out of an abundance of caution I now give Furan 2 at the first sign of fin rot.
- Pipefish, aside from usually arriving emaciated, also often suffer from bacterial issues that may or may not require treatment. Those I not only keep separated for quarantine purposes but also to be able to fatten them up first with Tigriopus (I have a 600 liter outdoors culture of those).
- Amphiprion species occasionally need a formalin dip against Brooklynella.
- most other fish go through the 8 weeks without any issues. I just quarantined 2 pairs of dartfish and a single without incident.

One thing to consider is that quarantine is not just for disease prevention but also to condition fish for tank-life or nurse them back to health after the ordeals they went through on their way to us. Just tossing them into a tank with well established fish may be a death sentence as fish are not always welcoming new arrivals. I had some new additions killed so fast that I couldn't intervene fast enough.
Yes - Agreed. The point being - most fish get through with nothing. Which is probably why many people here have the opinion that QT is not necessary. @brandon429 - THIS could be a work thread: if you do observational QT - what percent of your fish make it through with 'nothing' and second If you do prophylactic treatment - what percent of your fish do not make it through. With the following questions (which will also help answer the OP's question)

If you QT:

1. Duration
2. What medications if any
3. Display tank water or fresh
4. Do you use UV, Ozone, Diatom, Oxydator?

If you don't QT:
1. what percent of your fish are alive at 1 month
2. Do you add your fish to the refugium or just 'Drop in' after the appropriate acclimation.
3. Do you use UV, Ozone, Diatom, Oxydator?

For both:
How long have you had your tank up?
FOWLR or Reef?
What kinds/types of fish?
What is the source of your fish?
Estimate the time of travel between your purchase location and when they arrive at your (QT OR Regular) tank?
 

Lasse

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I misread what you meant here at first @brandon429 . Upon re-reading it, I agree. What do people using 'natural' methods do when the get a NEW fish that ends up being sick. Lets say in @Lasse's refugium? Would you treat it @atoll, @Lasse?
I do not know because it has never happen - but if so - probably treat if it is possible to get indications. Fish have died but no disease outbreak hitting other fish.

Sincerely Lasse
 

Lasse

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One thing to consider is that quarantine is not just for disease prevention but also to condition fish for tank-life or nurse them back to health after the ordeals they went through on their way to us. Just tossing them into a tank with well established fish may be a death sentence as fish are not always welcoming new arrivals. I had some new additions killed so fast that I couldn't intervene fast enough.
Exactly . therefore i always put newcomers in my refugium for 2 - 3 weeks or more if needed.

Sincerely Lasse
 

zalick

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If you don't QT:
1. what percent of your fish are alive at 1 month
2. Do you add your fish to the refugium or just 'Drop in' after the appropriate acclimation.
3. Do you use UV, Ozone, Diatom, Oxydator?


this is a great idea. I’m very curious about the bolded above. What form of parasite control do the long term natural tanks use? I think there is a misunderstanding for new reefers that these old tanks are plop and drop with no “artificial” form of parasite control. Atoll and Lasse both use hydrogen peroxide reactors and Paul uses/has used a diatom filter and bleach (bleach directly in DT and in NSW water for water changes).

I’d love to see people’s honest answers to the questions you posed in a work thread too.
In my 23yrs of reef keeping my personal experience is this:

Up until 2 months ago, I’d never knowingly had a pre-medicated fish in my tanks. None of my display tank fish ever showed any sign of parasite/bacteria. I never had any fish die within months or even a couple years of addition. I had 3 anthias show uronema in an observation tank and they perished within 24hrs. My only tank wipe came about 19yrs ago when an Australian sea apple died overnight and became power head food. For parasite control I have a 114w UV.

Two months ago I purchased 8 pre quarantined fish. 3 of the fish died within 4 days. The clown showed brook in the bag and never went in my DT. Lived 4 days. The mandarin never ate and lived maybe a day. The YWG looked healthy but small and is MIA presumed deceased.

My anecdotal experience is that the preQT fish I got were in rough shape from the meds as compared to all my prior purchases from the LFS where I observed fat healthy fish eating and they didn’t have a stressful flight to my house.

My wife is a veterinarian and pulled up a lecture for me that was given by Dr. Freeland Dunker who is the veterinarian at the Steinhart Aquarium at the California Academy of Sciences. He discussed stress in the aquarium setting and how stress releases corticosteroids (11-deoxycortisol), catecholamones, epinephrine and norepinephrine. When stress is chronic the constant release of chemicals causes suppressed immune systems, decreased growth and behavioral changes.

we all know that stress plays a huge role in fish health and his lecture was an interesting look at its role from a physiological perspective.
 

zalick

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Yes - Agreed. The point being - most fish get through with nothing. Which is probably why many people here have the opinion that QT is not necessary. @brandon429 - THIS could be a work thread: if you do observational QT - what percent of your fish make it through with 'nothing' and second If you do prophylactic treatment - what percent of your fish do not make it through. With the following questions (which will also help answer the OP's question)

If you QT:

1. Duration
2. What medications if any
3. Display tank water or fresh
4. Do you use UV, Ozone, Diatom, Oxydator?

If you don't QT:
1. what percent of your fish are alive at 1 month
2. Do you add your fish to the refugium or just 'Drop in' after the appropriate acclimation.
3. Do you use UV, Ozone, Diatom, Oxydator?

For both:
How long have you had your tank up?
FOWLR or Reef?
What kinds/types of fish?
What is the source of your fish?
Estimate the time of travel between your purchase location and when they arrive at your (QT OR Regular) tank?
Another pertinent question for both “camps”, which I’d love to see the pattern, is how often do you feed?

It seems many/most feed once a day. Many feed less then that. I would think this causes fish some level of chronic stress since they normal eat constantly all day long. I feed a minimum of 2-3 when I work and upwards of 10 when I’m home.
 
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ThRoewer

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Yes - Agreed. The point being - most fish get through with nothing. Which is probably why many people here have the opinion that QT is not necessary. @brandon429 - THIS could be a work thread: if you do observational QT - what percent of your fish make it through with 'nothing' and second If you do prophylactic treatment - what percent of your fish do not make it through. With the following questions (which will also help answer the OP's question)

If you QT:

1. Duration
2. What medications if any
3. Display tank water or fresh
4. Do you use UV, Ozone, Diatom, Oxydator?

If you don't QT:
1. what percent of your fish are alive at 1 month
2. Do you add your fish to the refugium or just 'Drop in' after the appropriate acclimation.
3. Do you use UV, Ozone, Diatom, Oxydator?

For both:
How long have you had your tank up?
FOWLR or Reef?
What kinds/types of fish?
What is the source of your fish?
Estimate the time of travel between your purchase location and when they arrive at your (QT OR Regular) tank?
I think it is also important to consider the quality of care at the fish store and how long the fish were there.
Important is also to know if they do treatments on the fish in their systems.

My preferred local store keeps their fish systems medicated at pretty much all times with copper. And they add other medication as needed. On top of that they have high power UV sterilizers in their return lines. You still see some new fish with infections but those that have been with them for a while are generally healthy.

There are a few other stores here that do no treatments at all and you see a lot of very sick fish there. I generally avoid buying there or only get fish that just arrived and hopefully had not yet a chance to pick up something ugly.
 

ThRoewer

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Another pertinent question for both “camps”, which I’d love to see the pattern, is how often do you feed?

It seems many/most feed once a day. Many feed less then that. I would think this causes fish some level of chronic stress since they normal eat constantly all day long.
It really depends on the fish. Some will find enough food in the tank to get them over the day and one feeding will do just fine. Others may need more. For those an auto-feeder may be required.
 

MnFish1

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Another pertinent question for both “camps”, which I’d love to see the pattern, is how often do you feed?

It seems many/most feed once a day. Many feed less then that. I would think this causes fish some level of chronic stress since they normal eat constantly all day long. I feed a minimum of 2-3 when I work and upwards of 10 when I’m home.
To me - this is the benefit of a 'mature' tank. There is always something for fish to eat.
 

zalick

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To me - this is the benefit of a 'mature' tank. There is always something for fish to eat.
Agreed. My gobies never need to be “fed” directly. My giant foxface could probably get by on the algae too (I keep algae on the rocks for grazers) but he’s a pig and prefers meat despite being a non obligate herbivore.
 

Lasse

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I generally avoid buying there or only get fish that just arrived and hopefully had not yet a chance to pick up something ugly
That´s my general idea too - agreement with the LFS to take the fish directly in the bag. However, I have some exceptions - fish that are bad shippers but otherwise very tough. And I know the origin of the fish since it arrive to Europe

Sincerely Lasse
 
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