Fish immune to disease?

Lasse

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And i write a suggestion to Maretimer too - solid advice how I had done in his case - without drugs.

But I understand you just love all of these threads where someone publice a picture of a "sick" fish or ask for advise about thin white poo and get solid advices how to treat, or what it is just based on one picture or three words (thin white poo) Often it will be suggest a cure with tons of drugs. Because there is guidelines - and that's the most important - if they are right or wrong - does not matter - because they try to help.

Sincerely Lasse
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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I’ll consider all rebuttals when they’re written there as a direct plan for the person asking for help vs here, where nothing is being tested live time.

Readers, do you expect the anti qt crew to post there and commit to the finish based on current trending

you can select literally any post on this forum and Jay is willing to work it live time, all day long, though
 

atoll

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I’ll consider all rebuttals when they’re written there as a direct plan for the person asking for help vs here, where nothing is being tested live time.

Readers, do you expect the anti qt crew to post there and commit to the finish based on current trending

you can select literally any post on this forum and Jay is willing to work it live time, all day long, though
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Each time I get a response alert I click both example threads, I see nothing but Jay saving reefs using the best info we have.


whatever you do, don’t post where there’s disease in someone’s tank. We’d like another full tank shot of your reef to see how non quarantining will turn out though for everyone.
 

Paul B

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Brandon my Buddy. Remember the people who are asking for help with sick fish should be asking people who medicate and quarantine for help. "Us" here with the immune tanks are not the best sources for advice for sick fish because we advocate a method where the fish "don't get sick " and speaking for myself anyway, I have not had to treat a sick fish in so long, the methods I used for that would be laughed at today.

As a matter of fact I disagree with the methods for curing sick fish today and cringe at some of the remedies. Ich can be eliminated in about 24 hours which I posted dozens of times and it is in my book. If people want to do something else, I can't help because I don't know about those newer methods which probably don't work because of all the diseases present.

The fallow for 72 days I find ridiculous as a hobby is supposed to be fun and that doesn't seem like fun to me. It also rarely works as you can read the dozens of posts on this forum about tanks that failed fallow periods and have to medicate or quarantine again. Over two months of fallow!
Really!!, I would quit the hobby the first time I did that. :(


I give plenty of advice, maybe to much, on how I would start a tank from scratch. If a tank isn't started the way I advise, I can't help if it gets sick. Just like Atoll and Lasse have their own similar methods. But all the methods rely on normal, natural methods where the fish itself is allowed to cure itself by not getting infected.

If we are not allowed to show our own systems the only other thing we can do is link to all the threads where quarantine and medication failed. I would rather not do that because it is not that important to me.

If anyone has a specific question I am sure one, or all of us can help with that as we normally do.
 

atoll

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Brandon am not sure you are reading all our posts however his problem stated as shown in in his opening line of his thread.
What would you like us to suggest other than strip his tank down and start again using a completely different method without mixing them and going off it. I do agree my method varies slightly to Paul as I dont live near a warm sea.
I also have to admit I am not sure exactly what you want that has not already been suggested to this guy by Paul and Lasse, seems you may have missed their replies.
If you want to fund a new tank for me and convince my wife to let me set up another I will set up a new one documenting it step by step with photos and videos.
What you may not know is that we, (I say we as I know Paul and Lasse get similar) get PMs about our methods and asking advice etc. Not everybody will post in an open forum.
 

Paul B

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Brandon I just went to that thread where you want us to help. I can't. That thread is all about Cuprimine, siprolax (whatever that is) fallow, quarantine and copper. To me, those fish are already pretty much doomed as I personally wouldn't know where to start.

As I said, a quarantine or medication person needs to help with that. I don't know how old the tank is (pretty new I would imagine maybe a year or two) I don't know what he Or she was feeding.
(Probably not worms as I suggest) I don't know if it was a natural looking tank with many hiding places where we can't hardly see the fish especially with those tangs.

I know for "my" method it is not just to dump fish in a tank. The food and tank set up has to be as I propose for "my" method. No dry foods, etc. You can't use part of our system and hope for the best.

That is why I try very hard to keep away from those threads. I just can't help after what those fish went through.

You are a quarantine guy so you would be best to help him and I hope you can. :cool:

I hate to see sick fish or hobbiests with all those problems.
 

Lasse

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To ask me - in most cases - how to treat a sick fish in saltwater is meaningless - I spite of more than 20 years of saltwater experiences - I have no experiences with treating saltwater fish. however with freshwater fish I have some experiences and after a lesson learn back in the 80:ties (malawi bloat) - I swing over to natural aquariums and natural food. However - we developed a treatment protocol for this disease. After understanding why it happens among tropheus (the food) people only using vegetable food (and some frozen mosquito larvae) and skip the high protein content of dry food pellets - things swing back to no disease. The reasons why I have no experiences of saltwater fish disease is because during this time - I get ich once - and saved the fish the way I describe for Martimer and never needed to treat.

Jay is doing a great job with advises based on his experiences - but what I understand - he stay out from the swamps of prophylactic treatments as much as possible and advocate observation QT.



Sincerely Lasse
 

Jay Hemdal

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To ask me - in most cases - how to treat a sick fish in saltwater is meaningless - I spite of more than 20 years of saltwater experiences - I have no experiences with treating saltwater fish. however with freshwater fish I have some experiences and after a lesson learn back in the 80:ties (malawi bloat) - I swing over to natural aquariums and natural food. However - we developed a treatment protocol for this disease. After understanding why it happens among tropheus (the food) people only using vegetable food (and some frozen mosquito larvae) and skip the high protein content of dry food pellets - things swing back to no disease. The reasons why I have no experiences of saltwater fish disease is because during this time - I get ich once - and saved the fish the way I describe for Martimer and never needed to treat.

Jay is doing a great job with advises based on his experiences - but what I understand - he stay out from the swamps of prophylactic treatments as much as possible and advocate observation QT.



Sincerely Lasse
Lasse,

Sorry - I think you misinterpret my stance on this. I advocate for an active prophylactic quarantine for ALL fish passing through the commercial fish supply chain. People misuse observational quarantine so often, that I don't suggest it. This is not a case of "do as I say, not as I do" my own quarantine protocol is even more stringent that what I post here. I have 180,000 gallons of tropical saltwater than I must manage. If Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium or Neobenedenia were to get into the system, because it also contains sharks and rays, I would have not treatment available for me to use. This is identical to people who have coral exhibits in which they cannot treat if they develop an epizootic.
Last year, I had a 800 gallon quarantine system in isolation for 8 months, until I was fully confident that releasing them to the main system was safe.

For those of you who haven't seen it, I keep my quarantine protocol posted here:



Jay
 

Paul B

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Hello Jay. I volunteer (not very often) at the Long Island aquarium here on Long Island and I think they have the largest, or one of the largest indoor coral reefs. But that doesn't matter. Those large tanks and the ocean are pretty similar as to disease. A much smaller home aquarium of a hundred gallons or so it totally different as you know.

The NY aquarium pumps in seawater to their shark tanks.
You can of course quarantine everything to assure yourself that there are no parasites or anything else. But we feel that is not normal or natural and healthy fish fed correctly can and easily deal with parasites as they were designed to do.

That is why I keep saying the "only" success is a fish that dies of old age, is "never" sick and if it can spawn, it spawns.

The vast majority of home tanks don't know if they are a success because they are not running long enough to have anything die of old age.
4 or 5 years doesn't mean anything for animals that can live 20 or 30 years.

Jay, I respect you and have followed you for many years and know you are successful which is why we vote for you to help people with sick fish as that is not our thing. ;)

Our thing is never having sick fish in the first place. Of course quarantining is one way to achieve that but Brandon is asking for (I think) our method of keeping fish healthy without quarantine or being immune as that is the title of this thread. :)
 

Lasse

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@Jay Hemdal What are your average survival rate with that treatment? Do you take fish direct from the exporters or is going through the US commercial fish supply line (i.e is there is a risk for earlier prophylactic treatments?)

I must say - it differ a lot between countries - our vet should never advocate that rough treatment protocol for us - it is only observation and treatment of indicated diseases. That type of prophylactic treatment is against Swedish laws of animal rights - which say that an animal must never be subjected to unnecessary suffering

Sincerely Lasse
 

Paul B

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Wow Lasse, that is cool. I don't think the laws in the US take care of fish, but I am guessing.
Now I have to prepare those flounders for dinner. :cool:
 

Lasse

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Its the same for all vertebrates. - fish not excluded. As an example of this - it is forbidden to angle with living fish as a baite. But not to kill them and eat them. And kill them and use them as bait is allowed - But - the law of not use living fish as a bait maybe is not among the most followed laws here.

Sincerely Lasse
 

zalick

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I don’t want to stir the pot and this is a genuine question:
For those who do not QT and believe their fish are immune, would you willingly place a fish with an active infection of velvet/brook/uronema in you tank right now as a challenge test?
 
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Jay Hemdal

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@Jay Hemdal What are your average survival rate with that treatment? Do you take fish direct from the exporters or is going through the US commercial fish supply line (i.e is there is a risk for earlier prophylactic treatments?)

I must say - it differ a lot between countries - our vet should never advocate that rough treatment protocol for us - it is only observation and treatment of indicated diseases. That type of prophylactic treatment is against Swedish laws of animal rights - which say that an animal must never be subjected to unnecessary suffering

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse,

Remember, mortality rate is a function of death over time. The mortality rate of ALL of our fish is 100%, given enough time!

I acquire fish with the shortest supply chain possible. I'm one of the developers of a public aquarium supplier reference system that is helping us select the suppliers with the best track records, I also "know" what fish NOT to acquire in order to keep the rate lower. I don't buy fish at the retail level except for my home aquarium. The survival rate depends on the species and the condition of the fish. For this current batch, it is 100% so far. I typically see 100% success for the diseases that this screens for the "big four": Cryptocaryon (haven't lost a fish to this since 2015) Neobenedenia (haven't lost a fish to this since 2005 or so). Amyloodinium (haven't lost a fish to this in 25+ years). Other monogeneans; gill and skin flukes, haven't lost a fish to this in recent memory, perhaps two years? Freshwater fish are not included here. Due to Covid, I didn't acquire many fish in the past 14 months.

We do lose fish to these issues:

Bacterial diseases
Uronema (haven't seen this since 2013 due to my avoiding susceptible species)
Mechanical issues (tankmate aggression, jumping out, etc.)
Viral diseases
Microsporidians
Waiting too long to begin quarantine
Capture with cyanide
Shipping myopathy
Unknown reasons


For these last three causes, I actually have unpublished studies of post-importation mortality rates. I ran one study at a pet store I worked at in the 1980's. The second two studies were run on fish that were donated to us by USFWS, having been confiscated from the recipient. These were fish that I didn't order, but I tried to keep them alive as best I could. They were what is termed "Grade B, SE Asian fishes" - wild clownfish, tiny green chromis, skinny Centropyge angels, fish I always try to avoid, but are really common in pet stores. Here is a synopsis of the results:

In my 1983 study, 61% of a group of suspected cyanide-collected fish died within 30 days of their importation. None of the control fish housed in same the aquarium system died, and only 9.1% of the fish originating from more sustainable areas died (Hawaii, Sri Lanka and Africa). All were in the same water system and treated with Coppersafe and photozone.

A similar test undertaken in 2006 showed that 55% of a group of Philippine and Indonesian fish died within 30 days of importation versus 3.1% of the control fish housed in the same quarantine system. Treatment was copper/citric acid (which I don't use anymore) and prazi.

In a third study, which followed a group of marine fish for 40 days after their arrival, 55.9% of the fish from suspect areas died while only 6.2% of the fish acquired from more sustainable regions and quarantined in the same system (at the same time) died. Many of these fish died from Uronema that I couldn't control. As I recall, the fish were treated with chloroquine and prazi.

I don't have access to the raw data right now, but my recollection is that the sample sizes ranged from 40 to 100 fish in each study.

So - what does this mean? It means that even with a good quarantine protocol in place, the mortality rate of fish in the US commercial supply chain is too high. Buying fish like these and NOT quarantining them adds in the mortality from uncontrolled disease, increasing the mortality rate, but worse yet, extending it to previously healthy fish in your systems.


Jay
 

MnFish1

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"Everything is dirty and diseased unless it is fixed by humans.:
Really? We are often better at making things worse. You can't get better than mother nature she has perfected her ways over millions of years. Man has contrived to turn it upside down. Man is part of the problem not the solution. Mother nature was doing just fine until man decided to interfere.
This is kind of funny. What was the life expectancy in 1500. What is the life expectancy in 2021?
I'm sure this will get some interesting replies and I think I know the answer but I want to hear it from you all first. Just because a fish is exposed to ich/velvet/brook, does it automatically carry the disease, even if it doesn't show any symptoms/isn't affected by it? I've had a foxface rabbishfish for three years whos been exposed to ich and velvet and has never shown any symptoms which is why I am asking. I am cycling my 300 that crashed due to a fish bringing velvet in. He has been in a QT now for 5 months with 2 other fish and none of them show symptoms of anything. The only treatment they have received was prazipro+metroplex. I don't want to put them through copper if it isn't necessary.
Fish have both innate and humoral immunity. Re-exposure to the parasite can help this persist. Seems like the most important thing is the underlying health of the fish (i.e. well fed, low stress, low stocking density). I personally use a common sense approach. Buy fish from reputable stores. Observe the fish (i..e have them hold it if they will for a week or 2). I do not buy fish from the internet. I do not quarantine (But the store I buy the fish from does). I have not had any disease, etc using this approach.
 

Paul B

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Yes of course. For many years I have asked anyone with a fish infected with whatever disease they like to come here and put it in my tank. I asked on 7 different forums for probably 10 years. No one ever came by so I took it off the table.
Last week on "this" forum, maybe even this thread someone wanted me to put in 8 chromis to see if they got uronoma. My tank is no longer a test platform for anyone to dump in fish I don't want to see if they will crash my tank. People who quarantine have things to prove, not me.

Now that I consider my tank a success I may take it down soon as I have other more important things to attend to so I have no need to prove anything.

Last week I put in 2 banded cardinals which I posted in my thread. They were heavily infected with probably ich. I haven't seen either fish since I put them in. I also put in very infected shrimpfish and a copperband which I also posted about and added pictures. In 50 years I am sure I added fish with every disease you could imagine with no problem. Try that with a quarantined tank. :oops:

Totally Immune fish can't get sick. If they do, they were not immune ;) Diseases are a non issue to people with immune tanks. We never think about disease unless someone brings it up here.

Search for me on disease forums since computers were invented and see if you can find anything about my tank where they had a communicable disease. Then look there for quarantined tanks. :cool:

thumbnail.jpg
 

MnFish1

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All the parasites have predators and older tanks have a higher probability of having them in balance with the parasites.

IMO the tank's immunity is as if not more important than the fish immunity.
Tanks do not have 'immunity' by the definition of the word, right? Also, how do you explain people what have 'Fish only' tanks but no disease?
The word Quarantine needs to be clarified.
When covid hit. To some extent all of us were quarantined.
This is exactly the point IMHO, there are multiple protocols. From observation alone to treatment with multiple drugs. When people say 'QT is good or bad', it could mean 100 different things
 
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HAVE YOU EVER GOTTEN A FISH THAT YOU WERE SO EXCITED ABOUT BUT IT ENDED UP BEING A BUST?

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